LENR Is Real

[AcesHigh]

is it true Rossi's device produces isotopically pure 62Ni as byproduct, and that a milligram of it costs $20k??

If it is, I wonder why Rossi still needs investors money, considering he produces lots of such an expensive byproduct which he could just sell.

As I said in NBF, people should look the italian market to see if price has been falling there due to unusual quantities of isotopically pure 62Ni entering the market.

[RERT]

I'm keen to be convinced, but the isotope analysis of the Nickel screams fraud. They opened the reactor just at the moment when all of the Ni isotopes had been turned to Ni 62? Was it just about to burn out? No, I don't buy it. I believe the ash was fake (sadly).

[birchoff]

I'm keen to be convinced, but the isotope analysis of the Nickel screams fraud. They opened the reactor just at the moment when all of the Ni isotopes had been turned to Ni 62? Was it just about to burn out? No, I don't buy it. I believe the ash was fake (sadly).

I know better than to ask this question, but my curiosity demands it. Why would the ash be fake? Rossi already got a payday from IH. The researchers carrying out the test and analysis risk a scarlet letter of sorts by faking the results. It doesn't make sense to me that anyone would believe without proof that the ash is fake. I can understand keeping the idea of the ash being improperly handled open as a possibility due to the nature of these results. But having as a part of your mental constitution the idea that the ash is fake is a bit much.

[birchoff]

is it true Rossi's device produces isotopically pure 62Ni as byproduct, and that a milligram of it costs $20k??

If it is, I wonder why Rossi still needs investors money, considering he produces lots of such an expensive byproduct which he could just sell.

As I said in NBF, people should look the italian market to see if price has been falling there due to unusual quantities of isotopically pure 62Ni entering the market.

My two cents...

Rossi no longer owns the rights to the technology. And I also believe he opted to sell those rights because he lacked the ability to build a reliable machine. As for selling pure 62NI; I think the jury is still out on that. You would need to separate it from the rest of the Ash so its not like the device spits out pure 62NI and nothing but 62NI. Finally I have not seen anywhere that Rossi and IH do not want to pursue that line of business in the future. If anything the possibility of having that line of business open would further support why IH bought the rights to the technology. They win Rossi over with their access to technical resources, in return they get technology that could fundamentally alter the energy environment in the future plus provides them with an alchemists crucible that provides them a valuable resource they can also sell, and control the the market for.

[Carl White]

Mills and BLP all over again. Noise and more noise but it never seems to reach fruition.

Well the latest news out of Rossi, a few weeks before today, is that they have a 1MW unit installed in a clients facility. So while you cannot run down to walmart to pick one up seems like they are making progress on making the idea come to fruition. Mills and BLP by my recollection are a bit behind comparatively.

Yes, the infamous 1MW unit. "Rossisays" again, to borrow ladajo's term. Who can claim to have seen it in operation and examined it? It's always words from the same group of people but little tangible.

[pbelter]

is it true Rossi's device produces isotopically pure 62Ni as byproduct, and that a milligram of it costs $20k??

The price of 62Ni is about $10 K but per gram not milligram. It is high not because of 62Ni rarity but because the purification technology could use improvement ... but there is no sufficient demand so there is no incentive.

Rossi can get 62Ni, but he would have to purify it using the same tech, and then find customers to sell it to. If something has a high price that doesn't mean there is demand for it, it just means it is a very specialized resource.

[birchoff]

Mills and BLP all over again. Noise and more noise but it never seems to reach fruition.

Well the latest news out of Rossi, a few weeks before today, is that they have a 1MW unit installed in a clients facility. So while you cannot run down to walmart to pick one up seems like they are making progress on making the idea come to fruition. Mills and BLP by my recollection are a bit behind comparatively.

Yes, the infamous 1MW unit. "Rossisays" again, to borrow ladajo's term. Who can claim to have seen it in operation and examined it? It's always words from the same group of people but little tangible.

Just passing on what I have heard. Whether or not the 1MW unit actually exists is only of consequence to Rossi, Industrial Heat, and the company that paid for it. Its existence or potential lack there of, cannot be used to call into question the validity of the report. On the other hand if you want to read the paper and offer some honest well thought out critique on the information found In the paper then by all means.

[Skipjack]

So, I read the paper and I am still not convinced, but I have to say that it has gained some credibility with this testrun. 32 days is a long time to run the reactor on. What annoys me is that the Null test is essentially worthless since it was done at a different input power among other things. A real double blind test with two reactors, one filled and one empty with the testers not knowing which is which, would have been the real way to do it, in my book.

[Asterix]

I know better than to ask this question, but my curiosity demands it. Why would the ash be fake? Rossi already got a payday from IH. The researchers carrying out the test and analysis risk a scarlet letter of sorts by faking the results. It doesn't make sense to me that anyone would believe without proof that the ash is fake. I can understand keeping the idea of the ash being improperly handled open as a possibility due to the nature of these results. But having as a part of your mental constitution the idea that the ash is fake is a bit much.

I think the picture isn't all that clear. Given the pattern of Cherokee Investment Partners, the usual procedure is to "seed" one of these efforts with the promise of a substantial payout if the technology pans out. See the Cherokee Challenge for example.

What I think is going on is that Rossi has received some seed money and incubator space and now has to prove that what he has works. This "third independent report" is not the end--if Rossi already had his millions, why would he care about the outcome?

The next step would be for Cherokee to bring in some SMEs (subject matter experts) unknown to Rossi to evaluate the report and demand clarification. Cherokee has a lot riding on this, so they would not hesitate to dump a few million into something that could be revolutionary.

Sit tight for a few months, let the hubbub die down and watch what Cherokee does.

That's what I intend to do.

[birchoff]

I know better than to ask this question, but my curiosity demands it. Why would the ash be fake? Rossi already got a payday from IH. The researchers carrying out the test and analysis risk a scarlet letter of sorts by faking the results. It doesn't make sense to me that anyone would believe without proof that the ash is fake. I can understand keeping the idea of the ash being improperly handled open as a possibility due to the nature of these results. But having as a part of your mental constitution the idea that the ash is fake is a bit much.

I think the picture isn't all that clear. Given the pattern of Cherokee Investment Partners, the usual procedure is to "seed" one of these efforts with the promise of a substantial payout if the technology pans out. See the Cherokee Challenge for example.

What I think is going on is that Rossi has received some seed money and incubator space and now has to prove that what he has works. This "third independent report" is not the end--if Rossi already had his millions, why would he care about the outcome?

The next step would be for Cherokee to bring in some SMEs (subject matter experts) unknown to Rossi to evaluate the report and demand clarification. Cherokee has a lot riding on this, so they would not hesitate to dump a few million into something that could be revolutionary.

Sit tight for a few months, let the hubbub die down and watch what Cherokee does.

That's what I intend to do.

I agree the next steps will be interesting. But until someone comes up with a really good argument against the isotopic analysis, the worst case scenario for Rossi is that it he may not have a reactor capable of generating more energy in than out. Which is honestly not that big a deal all things considered Considering the funding that has gone into main stream Fusion, next to nothing has gone into seeing how far LENR could potentially be scaled.

[Axil]

I know better than to ask this question, but my curiosity demands it. Why would the ash be fake? Rossi already got a payday from IH. The researchers carrying out the test and analysis risk a scarlet letter of sorts by faking the results. It doesn't make sense to me that anyone would believe without proof that the ash is fake. I can understand keeping the idea of the ash being improperly handled open as a possibility due to the nature of these results. But having as a part of your mental constitution the idea that the ash is fake is a bit much.

I think the picture isn't all that clear. Given the pattern of Cherokee Investment Partners, the usual procedure is to "seed" one of these efforts with the promise of a substantial payout if the technology pans out. See the Cherokee Challenge for example.

What I think is going on is that Rossi has received some seed money and incubator space and now has to prove that what he has works. This "third independent report" is not the end--if Rossi already had his millions, why would he care about the outcome?

The next step would be for Cherokee to bring in some SMEs (subject matter experts) unknown to Rossi to evaluate the report and demand clarification. Cherokee has a lot riding on this, so they would not hesitate to dump a few million into something that could be revolutionary.

Sit tight for a few months, let the hubbub die down and watch what Cherokee does.

That's what I intend to do.

This new high temperature alumina reactor is not even close to being commercially ready. It is just a research reactor with many flaws. But it does not produce radiation or radioactive isotopes. Rossi has been trying to get rid of the radiation for years and he has done it.

There is still a lot of research to be done.

[Carl White]

On the other hand if you want to read the paper and offer some honest well thought out critique on the information found In the paper then by all means.

Nice (well, insulting actually) red herring. I compared Rossi & Co. to BLP. You claimed they are further ahead. I pointed out there's no proof of it.

[RERT]

The fact I failed to relay from the paper is that the Ni 62 concentration is over 98% in both samples.

Maybe I've been following this for too long: I recall earlier that when people thought nickel was being transmuted to copper, copper was found in the ash. Now they find Ni 62 when that's the theory du-jour. I can either believe that via a magical reaction, isotopes of nickel absorb neutrons/protons, and by a magical process transmute to Ni 62 without any real-time or residual radioactivity, and Rossi stops the reactor just as it is about to run out of fuel, with no sign of changes in input or output power as a result of fuel depletion. Or I can believe someone faked the ash. Occam's razor steers me to the latter.

For me it's time to switch to being pleasantly surprised if this works out, rather than wasting my own depleted fuel expecting anything.

[birchoff]

The fact I failed to relay from the paper is that the Ni 62 concentration is over 98% in both samples.

Maybe I've been following this for too long: I recall earlier that when people thought nickel was being transmuted to copper, copper was found in the ash. Now they find Ni 62 when that's the theory du-jour. I can either believe that via a magical reaction, isotopes of nickel absorb neutrons/protons, and by a magical process transmute to Ni 62 without any real-time or residual radioactivity, and Rossi stops the reactor just as it is about to run out of fuel, with no sign of changes in input or output power as a result of fuel depletion. Or I can believe someone faked the ash. Occam's razor steers me to the latter.

For me it's time to switch to being pleasantly surprised if this works out, rather than wasting my own depleted fuel expecting anything.

I don't remember anyone having a report that details isotopic analysis of the fuel before a run and the ash after the run is completed, specifically with a independent party doing the actual analysis. That said, I do agree that where we are now clearly in a situation where the only two acceptable answers is that either

• The reactor is actually carrying out some sort of nuclear process
• Someone faked the ash results.

Generally the only way you can figure this out is by having someone else do their own replication, which I think has a slim chance of happening. As for believing in faked ash results, I would need proof before I believe that the researchers involved would not have controlled for that happening. Which basically means for me both options are 50-50 as far as I am concerned. What I would hope is that this prods the physics community to take a second look at LENR as it looks like there might be something here.

[birchoff]

On the other hand if you want to read the paper and offer some honest well thought out critique on the information found In the paper then by all means.

Nice (well, insulting actually) red herring. I compared Rossi & Co. to BLP. You claimed they are further ahead. I pointed out there's no proof of it.

There is no proof that what Mills and BLP has is actually real so they both occupy the space of being dark horses that I don't expect much from in my mind. Mills is trumpeting a theory that only he really believes in. While Rossi has invested his time and energy into a theory that has support from a diverse group of physicists; now these guys may not constitute the main stream of physics but the diversity of people who are actively researching Cold Fusion / LENR is an order of magnitude bigger than those actively researching Mill's theory. Add to that, this report and I find it hard to believe anyone could consider Mills to be ahead in the universe of unlikely energy sources. Which is why I suggested the information about the 1MW reactor that Rossi claims he has installed at a client's facility recently on hist journal of physics mailing list. I may only be able to take Rossi at his word but as far as Mills and BLP are concerned I am also stuck doing the same thing where they are concerned.

P.S.
No insult was meant from my previous comment. I simply wanted to see what people had to say about the actual report. This thread and others on this forum already chronicle all the different ways people think Rossi is a Fraud, Scam artist, and a bunch of things I cannot remember but are not pleasant. There is no need to re-cycle that old news. Instead getting feed back on what people think is potentially good or bad about the new report, preferrably with references to the pages in the report, would be a much better use of time and energy.