Google Polywell Fusion Counter

[Tom Ligon]

A much better place for it, as whatever the merits or demerits of these arguments, they don't belong in "News".

[Munchausen]

What of the poor electrons shed by the deuterium ionized just inside the magrid? What are they to do? The fast electrons converge on the center volume. Let's assume they have sufficient current to space-charge-limit the center: they will lose their kinetic energy as the potential reaches something approaching the cathode potential from which they were emitted: a fully developed potential well inside the magrid. The cold electrons can't go there because they lack the kinetic energy to overcome the potential. Likewise they can't go outside the magrid toward the cathodic wall potential. What is left for them? Attempt to get to the anode, the magrid. But they are discouraged from a direct path by the encircling magnetic fields. All they can do is slide along the magnetic field, taking little jumps where they can to sneak up on the magrid, oscillating in a path that avoids the cathodic areas. There is one spot where they can do this. The cusps. The cusps are the home for cold electrons. What the cold electrons do in the cusps will be vitally important in understanding the behavior of the machine. And they're just as negatively charged as the fast electrons.

On behalf of the community, I express our gratefulness for this piece of clarification.

I am particularly looking forward to showing that even electrons at the wall potential and cold ions at the plasma edge will not save you from massive energy losses.

May I humbly ask for your closer considerations behind this acclamation?

[Munchausen]

Modern organisational theory points out that good decisions are generally made in an environment where knowledgeable people from a variety of the walks of of life may freely express their opinions in a structured and relaxed way.

A major point of the science of history is that a society where the elite can isolate themselves from the consequences of their actions generally tend to make less than ideal decisions.

With a little more humour and less prestige, I think this forum can get closer to theese ideals. In this spirit, I will be continuing the role of being the mockerer of everyone.

Useless snide remarks like these are not getting the understanding advanced

A man with a small soul builds a strong shell around his little thoughts. We are not here to win a contest, we are here to exchange arguments, thereby reaching a standpoint on a higher level.

Modern anthropological research shows that during the quarter of amilion years before the advent of agriculture, man evolved into a creature who spends an unproportional amount of time on social interactions. That's why we have to impose such strong social taboos on work morale.

Realize facts: The meaning of the human existence is cozy win-win situations.

[chrismb]

Munchausen;

Sorry, fella, I have to disagree with you on most of this.

Modern organisational theory points out that good decisions are generally made in an environment where knowledgeable people from a variety of the walks of of life may freely express their opinions in a structured and relaxed way.

"Modern organisational theory" was devised by a variety of people from all walks of life and who freely express their opinions in a structured and relaxed way.

A major point of the science of history is that a society where the elite can isolate themselves from the consequences of their actions generally tend to make less than ideal decisions.

I challenge you to name a great scientific advance made by a group of relaxed people devised from a variety of walks of life.

Then name any individual who has made a scientific discovery to whom the title 'elite' is clearly inapplicable.

A man with a small soul builds a strong shell around his little thoughts.

An aspergers-type engineering/science geek with a lack of social skills is the archetypal source of all our great scientific advances. In this case I am sure you could name some exceptions, but on the whole for every big-souled, friendly, warm and caring advancor of human scientific and engineering knowledge, I will name you ten who are miserable gits and I will name you one-for-one those who either killed themselves or ended their days as burnt-out rejects of society.

We are not here to win a contest, we are here to exchange arguments, thereby reaching a standpoint on a higher level.

As this is a news item, I will justify my rant by concluding that Focus Fusion has been awarded a patent last week;

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars ... 07&OS=&RS=

and that at least they see merit in the "X-prize foundation" and are lobbying to get a 'fusion prize' set up. Contests are great and really get the interest and commitment going.

Modern anthropological research shows that during the quarter of amilion years before the advent of agriculture, man evolved into a creature who spends an unproportional amount of time on social interactions.

Then a few thousand years ago, geeks evolved, we developed agriculture, and we became civilized.

[MSimon]

An aspergers-type engineering/science geek with a lack of social skills is the archetypal source of all our great scientific advances. In this case I am sure you could name some exceptions, but on the whole for every big-souled, friendly, warm and caring advancor of human scientific and engineering knowledge, I will name you ten who are miserable gits and I will name you one-for-one those who either killed themselves or ended their days as burnt-out rejects of society.

Lets not get personal.

[chrismb]

Lets not get personal.

Getting personal requires the identification of a specific 'person'. Who did you have in mind?

[TallDave]

Even in a machine in which the walls are clearly an anode, the cusps can block. I think Rick may finally be getting a glimmer of why, but I've suspected a role for cold electrons since about a week after the event.

Ah, that brings us back to electron cusp plugging I believe. Very intriguing stuff.

Anyways, I hope we get to hear more from Rick on this someday soon.

[joedead]

Could this be summed up for a layman?

Electron losses = fail?

[Art Carlson]

OK Art. I'm game. We don't know if the cusps are quasi-neutral. Use your theory and give me a quantitative prediction as to how the WB-7 will behave.

Sorry, Rick, I overlooked this comment until now.

This discussion started when I made the statement that there is no self-consistent theory of polywell operation. Solo questioned this by sketching what he understood to be the potential profile along a cusp radius. I pointed out an inconsistency, so I can still maintain the assertion that there is no polywell theory that is both published and self-consistent.

I am disappointed and puzzled that you say we don't know if the cusps are quasi-neutral. Do we not know the rough geometry of the cusps, or do we not know the voltages on the magrid, or do we not know the electron density? Not much else goes into the calculation.

I wouldn't say I have a theory that can predict actual machine operation. I accept a lot of assumptions from polywell lore, either to point out inconsistencies or to give the concept the benefit of the doubt. Does WB-7 actually operate at beta =1? Is the sheath really rho_e thick? How should I know? I can only say if these things are true, then Maxwell's equation have inescapable consequences.

If you think you have a self-consistent picture of polywell operation, then please, please, please tell us what it is in sufficient detail that we can verify its consistency. If you are flying blind, well, that is an interesting piece of information, too.

[PolyGirl]

Following up from a week ago (Google figures seem to jump around from one end of the Earth to the other end and from week to week).

• Robert Bussard gives 78,500
  Bussard Fusion gives 31,000
  Polywell Fusion 16,000
  Bussard Polywell gives 6,110
  Bussard Polywell Fusion gives 13,700

Oh and just for fun:

• Msimon Fusion gives 645,000

Now do not let that go to your head

Regards
Polygirl

[MSimon]

Following up from a week ago (Google figures seem to jump around from one end of the Earth to the other end and from week to week).

• Robert Bussard gives 78,500
  Bussard Fusion gives 31,000
  Polywell Fusion 16,000
  Bussard Polywell gives 6,110
  Bussard Polywell Fusion gives 13,700

Oh and just for fun:

• Msimon Fusion gives 645,000

Now do not let that go to your head

Regards
Polygirl

I've been busy.

[Betruger]

I am disappointed and puzzled that you say we don't know if the cusps are quasi-neutral. Do we not know the rough geometry of the cusps, or do we not know the voltages on the magrid, or do we not know the electron density? Not much else goes into the calculation.

The way I read it, he was game for you to start an argument on those premises (which I get the impression are incorrect), to see what your (blind) prediction was, and compare that to what the actual WB7 showed. Not necessarily a fully detailed model of the polywell, just anything to see how accurate your predictions/modeling is. Wouldn't you say it's fair enough for the roles to be reversed for once?

And yes this needs to go in its own topic and in the right forum. This maze of cross talk is excessive.

Following up on my numbers (since we're all getting different ones):

• Polywell fusion: 16,200 (up 400)
  Robert Bussard : 86,800 (down 4.4k)
  Bussard Fusion: 65,600 (down 1.5k)
  Bussard Polywell: 6,990 (down 750)
  Bussard Polywell Fusion : 6,600 (down 500)

[KitemanSA]

WARNING WARNING : TOPIC RECLAMATION IN PROGRESS

Google "Polywell fusion" = 15,700, DOWN from 16,000 yesterday.

THANK YOU : THAT IS ALL

[Solo]

Well, judging by the contract report, Dr. Nebel + Co. probably haven't measured beta yet, b/c the contract calls for B-field probes, IIRC. I suspect that the machine is not going to run at Beta=1 without some encouragement: if the cusp sheilding voltage and/or ion loss is too high, the plasma density is going to be the variable that takes the hit until things balance out.

It seems to me that it should be relatively easy to put something like a Faraday cup outside one of the cusps, bias it negatively to repell electrons, and then measure the ion current. The electron current should be easy to figure out: the gun current can be measured, ionization produces the same amount of electrons as ions, and if you know the ion current the secondary emission from the walls could be estimated. Additionally, the current to the magrid could be measured; that would tell about the electron loss to the magrid.

[Art Carlson]

I suspect that the machine is not going to run at Beta=1 without some encouragement: if the cusp sheilding voltage and/or ion loss is too high, the plasma density is going to be the variable that takes the hit until things balance out.

I'm not sure this is the right way to think about the problem. Since there is a field null at the center, any plasma there automatically has beta=1. It may be that an underpowered machine will technically produce a beta=1 plasma, but with a smaller volume and a magnetic field which is a smaller fraction of the field at the coils. Another issue may be whether the sheath takes on its minimum thickness or not.