10KW LENR Demonstrator?

[parallel]

Ivy Matt,

Thanks for the patent link. It gives me a quite different idea from what I had gleaned earlier. The general speculation was about nano particles rather than plating a tube with nickel and fracturing the surface by various means.

I would not have guessed that worked and if it does, good luck to Rossi for thinking far outside the box. This will certainly require experimental verification before many, including the patent office, would believe it.

Edit added. I wrongly assumed that this was Rossi's patent. I've just noticed that it is Piantelli's invention (even though you wrote that) and dates back to 1995. It probably has little to do with Rossi's device.

[Skipjack]

In your application you describe the functioning of your device in sufficient detail that anyone "skilled in the art" can reproduce it.

Exactly! Oddly enough a lot of people seem to forget that part.

[Axil]

From reading the Piantelli's patent application, the key is to get the ion concentration on the surface of the metal above what is necessary to defeat coulomb repulsion.

I think the way Rossi is doing it is different than the way Piantelli wanted to do it. Nano-powder, IMHO, is one tool that Rossi uses to maximize hydride ion concentration. The use of pressure and a magnetic field are mentioned in the Piantelli's patent application as other Ion packing tools.


My current understanding goes as follows: when hydride ion concentration is high enough and the metal crystal lattice vibrations are sufficiently high (aka high temperature) the Debye's screening radius becomes greater than the coulomb repulsion distance and reverse beta decay of hydrogen (not fusion) occurs.


PS: Thanks for the Piantelli's patent application reference...Great fun here!

[Axil]

In deciphering the Rossi secrets, on clue is the detection of low atomic number elements like sulfur, chloride and potassium among others.

One can interpret this clue as follows:


Evidence of nuclear reactions in the Pd lattice.

The structure of the co-deposited Pd/D material, after
electrolysis of D2O in the absence of an external field,
including the EDX analysis of its surface, is illustrated
in Fig. 2. The electrode structure consists of globules
3–7 μm in diameter arranged in short columns. Each of the
individual globule is an aggregate of much smaller, almost
spherical units, having a diameter in the sub-micron range.
This “cauliflower-like” structure is uniform throughout the
electrode. The analysis by EDX results in Pd −95.17, O
−4.83 wt%, i.e. it shows only elements originally present
in the cell.


If, upon the completion of the co-deposition, an external
field is activated, then morphological changes occur.
Among the various structural forms, we find morphologies
with molten-like features, Figs. 3a–c, the development of
which requires high-energy expenditure. The question that
arises is: Are these structural changes due to the action
of the electrostatic field alone or is additional energy required
to produce the features? One such energy source
is that of a nuclear origin. If the distinct features are the
result of a nuclear reaction, then their chemical composition
should reflect it. Indeed, compelling evidence is provided
by the EDX analysis of selected spots from various
runs illustrated in Figs. 3a–c. The analysis of the boulderlike
form, Fig. 3a(ii), shows the presence of Al-21.72,
O-71.48, Pd-6.80 wt% while the area adjacent to it Pd-
95.17, O-4.83 wt%, Fig. 3a(iii). In the second example,
Fig. 3b (i), the “crater-like” form, we find in the
center Al-21.87, Mg-0.46, O-71.11 and Pd-6.75 wt%,
Fig. 3b (ii), and in the periphery Al-21.27, Mg-4.33,
O-68.19 and Pd-6.21 wt%, Fig. 3b (iii). In the third
example, Fig. 3c, the results are: O-45.49, Mg-0.43,
Al-0.50, Si-1.71, Cl-1.54, Ca-19.80, Zn-1.57 Pd-9.10,
Au-19.86 wt%.

In the above experiment, note that only when an electrostatic field is applied aluminum is produced in large amounts.


The Rossi device must contain an electrostatic field generator.


I also think that an element in the platinum family is used as an alloy with nickel to increase the hydrogen ion generating power of the nickel catalysts.


It makes sense to me to apply a high frequency high voltage electrostatic field to the nano-powder hydride to increase the speed and energy of the orbiting electrons directly above the atomic hydrogen ions to help in overcoming the coulomb repulsion barrier with these ions. This RF field will also produce heat from friction. Under this situation, what nuclear processes that favor the synthesis of aluminum is a mystery.

The function of the aluminum foil on the surface of the Rossi device may be to keep the existence and exact character of the RF signal a secret.

[tomclarke]

http://www.22passi.it/downloads/LENRMain.pdf

Here is the only properly written account of the experiment I have seen. Results are conclusively negative for beta expected by the hypothesised LENR. Lead shielding included (it would not be enough if this reaction ws happening).

Energy output is not fully considered except to point out that for 30kg (observer gesstimate) reaction vessel weight, unknown contents, you would need several weeks output to rule out chemical causes.

Best wishes, Tom

[Axil]

http://www.22passi.it/downloads/LENRMain.pdf

Here is the only properly written account of the experiment I have seen. Results are conclusively negative for beta expected by the hypothesised LENR. Lead shielding included (it would not be enough if this reaction ws happening).

Energy output is not fully considered except to point out that for 30kg (observer gesstimate) reaction vessel weight, unknown contents, you would need several weeks output to rule out chemical causes.

Best wishes, Tom

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/ ... 9269v1.pdf

Here is the Windom-Larson rebuttal attempting to prove that nuclear gamma radiation is absorbed by heavy (fast moving unbound) electrons on metallic hydride surfaces.

Do you see any flaws in this argument?

[Enginerd]

Here is the Windom-Larson rebuttal attempting to prove that nuclear gamma radiation is absorbed by heavy (fast moving unbound) electrons on metallic hydride surfaces.

So the complete lack of observable gamma radiation in fact proves that an unusual type of low energy nuclear fusion is in fact occurring covertly? In other news, Michelson–Morley's inability to detect the aether proved the aether exists.

Maybe this paper is relevant, and maybe the gammas are hiding from us, and maybe some unusual low energy nuclear fusion is occurring. But before I worry too much about the missing gammas, I'm still waiting for definitive 3rd party confirmation that some sort of alchemy is afoot, not merely a conventional chemical reaction.

[Axil]

To satisfy my own curiosity, I would like to see a 3rd party controlled extended demo of some weeks where at some point X-rays in the energy range 120 eV to 200 keV are counted. Install the sensor(s) on the inside of the lead shield.

The third party could sign a non disclosure agreement to make Rossi feel protected.

[cgray45]

Here is the Windom-Larson rebuttal attempting to prove that nuclear gamma radiation is absorbed by heavy (fast moving unbound) electrons on metallic hydride surfaces.

So the complete lack of observable gamma radiation in fact proves that an unusual type of low energy nuclear fusion is in fact occurring covertly? In other news, Michelson–Morley's inability to detect the aether proved the aether exists.

Maybe this paper is relevant, and maybe the gammas are hiding from us, and maybe some unusual low energy nuclear fusion is occurring. But before I worry too much about the missing gammas, I'm still waiting for definitive 3rd party confirmation that some sort of alchemy is afoot, not merely a conventional chemical reaction.

Yeah-- for this to work at any sort of decent level of energy, you're talking nearly 100% absorbtion.
But here's the problem. Occams razor remains a good rule of thumb-- we can assume several unique processes, occuring in just the right way-- or we can assume a chemical process, which interestingly enough completely accounts for the lack of gammas.

[Jboily]

http://www.22passi.it/downloads/LENRMain.pdf

Here is the only properly written account of the experiment I have seen. Results are conclusively negative for beta expected by the hypothesised LENR. Lead shielding included (it would not be enough if this reaction ws happening).

Energy output is not fully considered except to point out that for 30kg (observer gesstimate) reaction vessel weight, unknown contents, you would need several weeks output to rule out chemical causes.

Best wishes, Tom

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/ ... 9269v1.pdf

Here is the Windom-Larson rebuttal attempting to prove that nuclear gamma radiation is absorbed by heavy (fast moving unbound) electrons on metallic hydride surfaces.

Do you see any flaws in this argument?

In their patent application (see following link), they explain fairly well how the process works, and how to duplicate it.

The technique appears to require a pulsating H2 pressure. We could speculate that the reaction is promoted by the induced displacement of the Hydrogen within the metal matrix
Application: WO/2009/125444

• METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR CARRYING OUT NICKEL AND HYDROGEN EXOTHERMAL REACTIONS; pub. Date: 15.10.2009


There are some spectrums of electonic bonbrdment analysis of the Nickel particules after uses. I suspect the undocumented peak to be caused by the reaction cathalist they are using. (is there anyone here that can tell us what element this peak is from?)
Given some funding, I would gladly setup an independent testing here in Canada. This do not seems to require much of an effort. My guess is that many different labs around the world are going to do just that within the next few months.

Cheers,

jb

http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?WO= ... SPLAY=DOCS

[Axil]

http://www.22passi.it/downloads/LENRMain.pdf

Here is the only properly written account of the experiment I have seen. Results are conclusively negative for beta expected by the hypothesised LENR. Lead shielding included (it would not be enough if this reaction ws happening).

Energy output is not fully considered except to point out that for 30kg (observer gesstimate) reaction vessel weight, unknown contents, you would need several weeks output to rule out chemical causes.

Best wishes, Tom

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/ ... 9269v1.pdf

Here is the Windom-Larson rebuttal attempting to prove that nuclear gamma radiation is absorbed by heavy (fast moving unbound) electrons on metallic hydride surfaces.

Do you see any flaws in this argument?

In their patent application (see following link), they explain fairly well how the process works, and how to duplicate it.

The technique appears to require a pulsating H2 pressure. We could speculate that the reaction is promoted by the induced displacement of the Hydrogen within the metal matrix
Application: WO/2009/125444

• METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR CARRYING OUT NICKEL AND HYDROGEN EXOTHERMAL REACTIONS; pub. Date: 15.10.2009


There are some spectrums of electonic bonbrdment analysis of the Nickel particules after uses. I suspect the undocumented peak to be caused by the reaction cathalist they are using. (is there anyone here that can tell us what element this peak is from?)
Given some funding, I would gladly setup an independent testing here in Canada. This do not seems to require much of an effort. My guess is that many different labs around the world are going to do just that within the next few months.

Cheers,

jb

http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?WO= ... SPLAY=DOCS

I see Silicon (ash - abbreviated Si) copper (ash - undocumented peak between nickel and zinc) and cobalt (secret catalyst and/or ash? - abbreviated Co). Is that what you’re asking?

I will guess that cobalt is one of the secret reaction catalysts but not the only one.

Here is why I think thus…note from the patent:

Moreover, it has been found that, after having generated energy the used powders contained both copper and lighter than nickel atoms (such as sulphur, chlorine, potassium, calcium).

and

In particular, said graphs clearly show that zinc is formed, whereas zinc was not present in the nickel powder originally loaded into the apparatus said zinc being actually generated by a fusion of a nickel atom and two hydrogen atoms.

I find it telling that he does not say the same thing about cobalt that he says for zinc. He also mentions copper as an ash but not a word about cobalt…is he keeping cobalt a secret? …bingo.

[Jboily]

[quote="Axil ... I find it telling that he does not say the same thing about cobalt that he says for zinc. He also mentions copper as an ash but not a word about cobalt…is he keeping cobalt a secret? …bingo.[/quote]

Thank you Axil, this sound good.

They where sugesting a two step reaction, maybe this involves Co as un intermediary.

[Axil]

Cobalt is important to Rossi catalyst operation because it produces a {111} face-centered cubic (FCC) phase core seed to the nano-particle. This is something that the nickel can use as a pattern or template to produce crystals in an optimum way. Just as a speck of salt dust seeds the formation of a snowflake, so to a subnano-sized bit of cobalt forms the heart of a Rossi nano-particle that nickel can crystallize on in a {111} face-centered cubic pattern.

A snow flake


Snow crystals form when tiny supercooled cloud droplets (about 10 μm in diameter) freeze. These droplets are able to remain liquid at temperatures lower than −18 °C (0 °F), because to freeze, a few molecules in the droplet need to get together by chance to form an arrangement similar to that in an ice lattice; then the droplet freezes around this "nucleus."

The {111} face-centered cubic pattern.


Most importantly in order for the Rossi catalyst to work, close packing of hydrogen nuclei on the surface of the nickel is required. The Rossi catalyst works because all its nano-particles have a crystal structure that is {111} face-centered cubic.






To understand this principle, consider the most efficient way of packing together equal-sized spheres and stacking close-packed atomic planes in three dimensions. For example, if a plane lies beneath plane B, there are two possible ways of placing an additional atom on top of layer B. If an additional layer was placed directly over plane A, this would give rise to the following series:

...ABABABAB....

This type of crystal structure is known as hexagonal close packing (hcp).

If however, all three planes are staggered relative to each other and it is not until the fourth layer is positioned directly over plane A that the sequence is repeated, then the following sequence arises:

...ABCABCABC...


This type of crystal structure is known as cubic close packing (ccp)


The unit cell of the ccp arrangement is the face-centered cubic (fcc) unit cell. This is not immediately obvious as the closely packed layers are parallel to the {111} planes of the fcc unit cell. There are four different orientations of the close-packed layers.


The packing efficiency can be worked out by calculating the total volume of the spheres and dividing that by the volume of the cell. When this is done, a 74% maximum packing density efficiency is possible in unit cells constructed of spheres of only one size. In the Rossi case those spheres are hydrogen nuclei.

From the PIANTELLI, patent as follows:

Then, when the ratio of the number of deuterium atoms to the metallic atoms (D/Me) exceeds the threshold limit of 0.7, a fusion reaction D+D is activated among the deuterium atoms adsorbed in the crystal lattice following the application of a disturbance which sets the consecutive lattice planes into push-pull vibration..

In plain English, what Piantelli is saying here is that most of the surface of the nickel coated outer surface of the nano-particle must be covered with hydrogen nuclei.

If the packing efficiency of the {111} face-centered cubic surface is .74, then only 4 % of the nickel surface can be left unfilled by hydrogen nuclei in order for the reaction to commence.


When Nickel crystallizes, it does not usually form a FCC crystal structure, but with the help of a little piece of cobalt at the center of the particle to seed crystal formation, to form a scaffold on which the nickel atoms can use to follow a pattern, then the correct manufacture of such a catalyst is guarantied.



A nano-particle


To start the reaction, you also need to get the closely packed hydrogen nuclei shaking on the nickel coated face of the Nano-particles.


more to come...

[icarus]

Nano-fusion?

[geleto]

Catch 22

You can not get a patent until you show your device and

You can not show you device until you get a patent.

The way to break this impasse is to give your device to the world and let someone else profit from it.

Actually you can publicly disclose all the information without having a patent. Then you have 1 year to file a patent.

From this page:
invention will not normally be patentable if:

• the invention was known to the public before it was "invented" by the individual seeking patent protection;
• the invention was described in a publication more than one year prior to the filing date; or
• the invention was used publicly, or offered for sale to the public more than one year prior to the filing date.

One of the most important lessons to learn from this requirement is that there is a one year period after the first public disclosure or offer for sale of an invention during which a patent application must be filed.

Cobalt is important to Rossi catalyst operation because it produces a {111} face-centered cubic (FCC) phase core seed to the nano-particle...

... so if cobalt is the 'secret ingredient', and it is used in the fashion you just described, one can argue that Rossi can not patent it because your explanation constitutes prior art. One more reason to do a full disclosure.