10KW LENR Demonstrator?

[ScottL]

ScottL -
I am not defending Rossi but defending Ny Tek. The video of Essén and Kullander you mention was done way before their visit and demo in April.

The only report by them other than the video past the April date was a text based report. This report re-iterated at best what they said in the video. Given the calculations provided by Rossi and without looking into the device, it could be something. If Rossi is to be believed, then it's nuclear, however; without futher review and replication, nothing more can be said.

[Ivy Matt]

We say that all of Hyperion products are "plug and play".

I wonder if one day they will state that it was a typing mistake as in reality they wanted to write "Plug and Pray"

Funny you should say that.

[ScottL]

If it is a scam, it could be one of the biggest monetary scams of all time. Rossi enters a country in political turmoil, civil unrest growing. He presents a miracle machine that could save the world. Anyone and everyone with their backs against the wall, looking for a way out, pay him for his miracle device in hopes of saving themselves, and then poof....Rossi disappears, money never seen again. That is...if its a scam.

[seedload]

seedload,

I am skeptical and say wait and see if it works before jumping to conclusions with too little proof.

You are a pathological skeptic who is certain that it is a fraud.

If you were at all skeptical, as you claim, then you would look at that steam output and say, hey, wtf. You don't. If you were skeptical, you would wonder about the isotopic distribution of the copper. You don't! If you were skeptical, Rossi's recent outbursts would confuse you. They don't. If you were skeptical, you would actually care to listen to what scientists actually said instead of lumping them all in the Rossi camp. You can't. If you were skeptical....

Instead, you are busy worrying about who you think to be pathological or not.

There are far too many ridiculous claims in the world to adopt a wait and see attitude to all of them. Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence. Until those happen, expressing doubt is not pathological, it is common sense. Add to that other dubious claims, and extreme skepticism is most definitely called for.

No, you are not skeptical and I am surely not pathological.

regards

[kurt9]

If it is a scam, it could be one of the biggest monetary scams of all time. Rossi enters a country in political turmoil, civil unrest growing. He presents a miracle machine that could save the world. Anyone and everyone with their backs against the wall, looking for a way out, pay him for his miracle device in hopes of saving themselves, and then poof....Rossi disappears, money never seen again. That is...if its a scam.

The Greek economy is in desperate straights, but Greece does have the largest known reserves of Nickel anywhere in Europe. This makes them susceptible to a con based on a the use of Nickel for energy generation.

[KitemanSA]

The Greek economy is in desperate straights, but Greece does have the largest known reserves of Nickel anywhere in Europe. This makes them susceptible to a con based on a the use of Nickel for energy generation.

Interesting tidbit. Thanks.

[seedload]

If it is a scam, it could be one of the biggest monetary scams of all time. Rossi enters a country in political turmoil, civil unrest growing. He presents a miracle machine that could save the world. Anyone and everyone with their backs against the wall, looking for a way out, pay him for his miracle device in hopes of saving themselves, and then poof....Rossi disappears, money never seen again. That is...if its a scam.

As a tidbit, Christos Stremmenos, Vice President of Defkalion, is a close friend of George Papandreou, the Prime Minister of Greece.

[parallel]

ScottL -
I am not defending Rossi but defending Ny Tek. The video of Essén and Kullander you mention was done way before their visit and demo in April.

The only report by them other than the video past the April date was a text based report. This report re-iterated at best what they said in the video. Given the calculations provided by Rossi and without looking into the device, it could be something. If Rossi is to be believed, then it's nuclear, however; without futher review and replication, nothing more can be said.

You linked to an early video before Hanno Essén, Sven Kullander had visited for a demo of the E-Cat, that was not the one I referred to, and even then put words in their mouths. More to the point is what they wrote themselves after their visit.

Any chemical process for producing 25 kWh from any fuel in a 50 cm3 container can be ruled out. The only alternative explanation is that there is some kind of a nuclear process that gives rise to the measured energy production.

http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article ... +%28pdf%29.

In passing, NiTeknik is not just a blog, it is an on-line technical journal followed by many professional engineers.

You are always keen to say how stupid everyone else is and yet you get everything wrong yourself. You belittle Rossi but I wonder what significant things you have ever done in your life.

[93143]

There are far too many ridiculous claims in the world to adopt a wait and see attitude to all of them.

If you don't have conclusive evidence one way or the other, a wait and see attitude is the default position. That's how science works. You may think a claim unlikely, but declaring it incorrect is not warranted unless strong evidence against it (evidence for a mutually-exclusive alternative counts, of course) is available.

What you're describing is radical skepticism, which is not a scientific attitude and does more damage than you realize. It may be psychologically painful to admit the magnitude of the uncertainty in one's picture of the world, but it's intellectually dishonest to try to hide it behind manufactured certainty, and in cases where what "everyone knows" is actually wrong, it can lead to... well, we know where that leads.

NB: I am not taking a position on the Rossi issue. This is a general statement.

[ScottL]

The effect may be real. Lots of other people, including Piantelli, have been working with Ni-H fusion processes and there is a credible theory to explain it, Widom-Larson theory. However, Rossi is coming across more and more as an outright con-artist.

ScottL, are you the Scott Little of EarthTech? If so, how are things at Earthtech these days?

Sorry not the same

[CherryPick]

If it is a scam, it could be one of the biggest monetary scams of all time. Rossi enters a country in political turmoil, civil unrest growing. He presents a miracle machine that could save the world. Anyone and everyone with their backs against the wall, looking for a way out, pay him for his miracle device in hopes of saving themselves, and then poof....Rossi disappears, money never seen again. That is...if its a scam.

Man-made global warming is much bigger scam. It would be difficult to go as far on the money in Rossi's approach without showing a working device.

We have now discussed hundreds of pages about this based on pure speculation. Independent verification is needed but Rossi gives just demos. Because E-cat is not as visual as a flying machine, observers can't be sure that it is real (or not).

Independence means that we can trust the measurement setup and devices. There should be no question whether tap water is tap water or whether you get 220 V from the socket or that the steam is dry. Trying to see from a video whether the steam output is 1,9 g/s or 0,3 g/s plus some water is something that I prefer not to do. Someone whom I trust must measure it.

[TallDave]

Andrea Rossi
June 23rd, 2011 at 1:18 AM
Dear J.Catania, I have already answered to this issue. To estimate a steam flow in television is ridiculous. Dry steam is not visible. All you can see is the wet portion of it. I already gave in this blog the flow-speed calculation. Some imbecile has made a comparison between our output and ne of an appliance that emits more water than steam. We cannot lose time on this. Again, only product in operation in Customers’ facilities is the test that counts. All the rest is chattering which produces more chattering, exponentially, if you fall in this trap.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

That's a bold statement. It increases my belief in his sincerity -- though he could still be wrong, of course.

[seedload]

There are far too many ridiculous claims in the world to adopt a wait and see attitude to all of them.

If you don't have conclusive evidence one way or the other, a wait and see attitude is the default position. That's how science works. You may think a claim unlikely, but declaring it incorrect is not warranted unless strong evidence against it (evidence for a mutually-exclusive alternative counts, of course) is available.

What you're describing is radical skepticism, which is not a scientific attitude and does more damage than you realize. It may be psychologically painful to admit the magnitude of the uncertainty in one's picture of the world, but it's intellectually dishonest to try to hide it behind manufactured certainty, and in cases where what "everyone knows" is actually wrong, it can lead to... well, we know where that leads.

NB: I am not taking a position on the Rossi issue. This is a general statement.

Lecturing about science in regards to the E-CAT? Sheesh!

This is not science. I don't have to treat is as such. Rossi certainly isn't. The second he does, publishes a real paper, a real experiment, lets someone look at it, stops talking about spies, files a patent for the real secret, or does anything at all scientific, then maybe you have a f'ing point to call me radical for calling a spade a f'ing spade.

In the case of a likely fraud, declaring your level of disbelief is not only warranted, but is the moral thing to do. Frauds are not science especially when the originator is not treating them as such.

I am certainly entitled to express my f'ing opinion on whether something is likely or not based on my examination of it! If I suspect fraud, then it is not only warranted for me to declare so, it is moral to do so. Unless you think letting people get fleeced is moral. I don't.

If I would take your advice, I would have to accept that I can't express my opinion on Bigfoot, Dinosaurs in Africa, Alien Abductions, Crop Circles, law mowers that run on water, ghost busters or any of a billion different full of crap things out there without having specific scientific evidence that 'disproves' them.

The burden of proof is not mine!

We are humans. We make judgments based on incomplete information all the time. Some are better at it. Some are worse. But, it is what we do. Science is supposed to be designed to take the human factor out of making these judgments. It is obviously deficient at this in many areas. But, in the total absence of science, then we are back to making human judgments based on incomplete information.

In this case, I have incomplete information that leads me to think this is a fraud and I will say as much, TYVM.

regards

[ScottL]

ScottL -
I am not defending Rossi but defending Ny Tek. The video of Essén and Kullander you mention was done way before their visit and demo in April.

The only report by them other than the video past the April date was a text based report. This report re-iterated at best what they said in the video. Given the calculations provided by Rossi and without looking into the device, it could be something. If Rossi is to be believed, then it's nuclear, however; without futher review and replication, nothing more can be said.

You linked to an early video before Hanno Essén, Sven Kullander had visited for a demo of the E-Cat, that was not the one I referred to, and even then put words in their mouths. More to the point is what they wrote themselves after their visit.

Any chemical process for producing 25 kWh from any fuel in a 50 cm3 container can be ruled out. The only alternative explanation is that there is some kind of a nuclear process that gives rise to the measured energy production.

http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article ... +%28pdf%29.

In passing, NiTeknik is not just a blog, it is an on-line technical journal followed by many professional engineers.

You are always keen to say how stupid everyone else is and yet you get everything wrong yourself. You belittle Rossi but I wonder what significant things you have ever done in your life.

I don't need to put any words in their mouth, quoted "Not a total scam" from their mouth per the video. Thanks for the link though to the report, let me see..

Since we do not have access to the internal design of the central fuel container and no information on the external lead shielding and the cooling water system we can only make very general comments.

That of course isn't damning in and of itself for certain. What they wrote essentially is that they saw a 37.5 C temperature change in 4 minutes which cannot be explained by a chemical reaction, true. Unfortunately there isn't much in the report about monitoring the input power through-out the experiment among other things. Once again if Rossi is to be believed, then its something, if not, it's likely nothing.

[parallel]

seedload,

If you were skeptical, as well as the things you listed you would consider the second 18 hour test done without steam, the fifty plus people who witnessed the demonstrations, none of whom have come out to say it was a fake, the various credible scientists who have been involved who are not related to Rossi, and, the certainty that investors don't part with millions of dollars without doing some homework - amongst other things.

You just look for negative things to reinforce your near religious belief and don't even consider the positive things. You didn't mention even one! That is what makes you a pathological skeptic.