10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[cgray45]

I'm calling BS.

1. His arguments and claims are classic, 100% pure scam artist.

2. The can't show it because I can't get a patent? BS. He wants to prove it and make a huge amount of money he can go to the Japanese (who given recent events might be just a little, a little, mind you, intersted in something like that), or India, which imports nearly 80 percent of its energy needs, or brazil.

He can do so with contracts signed and governed by the laws of the United States, allowing him to seize thier assets IN THE US if he gets betrayed, and yes, it's an easy proof because if it works they'll be churning out units by the ship full.

instead, he goes to "invisible clients" who somehow never materialize. How....convenient that this keeps his magic box from ever being tested before an unfriendly audience (much like the old dean drives, and psionics machines of the 1960's and 1970s).

But even more damning, his book?
"The Incineration of Waste and River Purification" He claims to have written it and published it and that its been used in college level schools.

Guess what? I've looked in just about every professional and general library and academic catalog, and it isn't there. Both in Italian and Enlighs-- no reviews, no checks. No comments.

Those in the science fields should understand what this means. It's very likely that it was never published professionally and was a self published job. Given that he managed to poison a good chunk of the ground aroudn his plant, I'm not surprised that it never made it very far.

In the name of oil evidently was printed, but from what I've been able to find, it's not science, nt at all.

So here again, we have the great man, but only his word for the existence of these books, or how they were recieved or used.

Guys, I've known Brooklyn Bridge dealers that were more credible and up and up than this scam artist.

[TallDave]

@Talldave:
In case you missed it in the flurry...

Right, I'm aware EMC2 are in fact on there, my point was just that it's not trivial to rule out Rossi being on there, especially if he's a subcontractor to an unknown Navy contractor. It's helpful to know that someone has apparently looked, but I'm not sure how much effort has been put in on that score, and so I'm not confident we can easily dismiss the notion.

The US Navy did not buy Rossi's first unit. The navy does not buy things that way, especially at that price. No chance.

Again, maybe not directly, but a USN contractor certainly could have have bought it for the stated purpose of heating remote USN camps; it's not like they can't buy things on their own spec and $1M is small change to a lot of them. It would help explain why Swanson is involved (regardless of whether he is willing to share the information Rossi says he has).

[TallDave]

For what its worth, I do not think it will be hot enough to melt. I do think that the closer to the reactor core it is, the more likely it will droop.

That said, only Rossi & Co. know what is in the reactor itself. And they ain't talkin. However, the available evidence does not seem to add up for what he claims/says/shows.

My idea is that there should be more lead than he has shown or discussed.

At the end of the day, until someone gets their mitts on a unit to test without Rossi interference, we will not know what the deal is.

Yes, I've seen a few source that seem to agree on this point now. AFAIK Foucardi has not elaborated, but either we're missing something or this could only work if the output was in the X-ray range.

[TallDave]

The patent office will absolutely consider patents for cold fusion if they are presented with a working cold fusion machine. A working machine would easily be given a patent -- provided such a working machine were delivered to the patent office, and could be tested using well designed thermal measurement methods (the sort that have been discussed for over 300 pages on this forum) to demonstrate vast amounts of heat being produced in a manner that conclusively must be cold fusion...
...
Patent office people (just like physicists and engineers) are pragmatists. Show us a working machine, a working experiment that can be replicated, etc, and hell yeah we will change our opinions.

For something as novel as a cold fusion machine, I suspect that would take several years and expose trade secrets with the outcome still dubious -- perhaps they would accept the device's output but reject Rossi's theory of the device. I know BLP spent years in litigation over their patent application (not that their theory made much sense) and there were apparently reversals within the patent office.

Rossi appears to be betting that for now he is better served by just selling E-Cats before anyone else figures out what he's done. He might be wrong about that, but that wouldn't say much about whether he's wrong about the device working.

[TallDave]

Michael Lee?

I was playing with this: http://www.radprocalculator.com/Gamma.aspx

And it says that to go from 500mrem/hr down to 5mrem/hr you need 3.5 centimeters of lead.
So with 11.3g/cc of lead, figuring for arguments sake a 30x30x30 container to shield the core, based on a wild ass guess from the photos and such, that would be a volume 33.5x33.5x33.5 or 37595.375 - the interior volume 30x30x30 (27000) or 10595.375cc of lead. With given density, 10595.375*11.3/1000 or 119kg (or ~264lbs for non-metric types)) of lead shielding.
Let's assume that there are 10 modules per bank in the container, each with 3 reactors per the photos here:

http://pesn.com/2011/10/28/9501940_1_MW ... uccessful/

100 E-Cat modules, each with 3 reaction chambers in them, for a total of 300 reaction chambers. An additional 20 or so units had been installed on the top of the shipping container, compared to the earlier photos and videos we had seen

This is a 20 foot container, so each module including total package could be no more than 20/10 or 2 feet across. You can argue from the photos that they are about 1 foot high. But, as seen in the pics, they are wrapped in insulation (not shielding), so that means the module containre itself is smaller.

In any event, 100 modules using our 33.5x33.5x33.5 OD shielding box, would give about 11,900kg or 26,400lbs of shielding weight to the container. A standard 20ft container is rated for:

Subtracting the tare mass of the container itself, the maximum amount of cargo per TEU is reduced to approximately 21,600 kilograms (48,000 lb).[4]

per: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-foo ... alent_unit

So we can see that Rossi is burning up over 50% of his weight rating just with shielding, and this does not count the actual equipment and hardware.

And from here:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/News:Photo ... E-Cat_Test
we can see no evidence of 3.5 centimeter shielding in the packaging, nor have we seen any such ting in his previous stand alone units here:
http://pesn.com/2011/05/02/9501822_NyTe ... Catalyzer/

I guess good counter arguments are that we do not know the gamma energy levels, and that we do not know the actual internal construct of a "module", as well as we do not know the actual source rate of the reaction.

I would offer that given the photos, and basic physics, that we do know some things. The gamma energies can probably be assumed to lay between .5 and 1.5 MeV which would be fine for the shielding estimate. We can also assuem that the 3 reators in a module look very similar to what is shown, but inside the heat exchanger box. Rossi could either build one shielding box (which is inferred in one photo caption, but not at all evident given the box itself), or go with 3 seperate shielding units, one for each reactor. I would posit that the weight would still be considerable given that 3 smaller boxes would still need 3.5cm for a realistic reduction in dose rates (factor of 100).
I know I date myself by using mrem as a dose rate, but it is what I grew up with and comfortable in my brain. To put it in context, 500mrem is the annual limit for navy radiation workers.

I looks pretty like a shaky story when you compare photos, statements and facts. I am having a hard time believing the "small amount of lead" for the "gammas" story.

Interesting analysis.

You should note that Rossi says that the flowing water is NOT in the gamma ray flux.

Andrea Rossi
November 18th, 2011 at 5:29 PM
Dear Charlie Zimmerman:
1- no
...
A.R.

Charlie Zimmerman
November 18th, 2011 at 3:54 PM
Dear Mr. Rossi,

Dr. Focardi mentioned in a recent interview that there is gamma radiation while the device is running but that it is shielded (something I recall you mentioning as well). I hadn’t heard you comment on this before but…

1) Is the water in the gamma ray flux?
...

Best Regards

This means that the shielding must be between the 'reaction chamber' and the water surrounding it. This is shown in the patent with layers of boron and lead and I think stainless surrounding the 'core'.

Rossi claims shielding uses Boron in addition to Lead. Unless there are neutrons, I don't really understand the Boron claim. Of course, the patent also claims three body fusion and fission as well, so ... whatever.

If the shielding is between chamber and water, then the heat must also be transfered through the lead shielding which is also interesting.

EDIT - What is with the resolution of these pictures? It's 2011 for God's sake. Get a real camera, NyTeknik.

Was Focardi maybe looking at something like this? Perhaps he is utilizing some kind of x-ray flourescence to make the shielding lighter?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_ ... _shielding

I couldn't find any other references to boron being used in gamma shielding.

[Ivy Matt]

It seems no matter how often it is repeated, posters here don't get it. It is impossible for Rossi to get a patent on cold fusion here. The patent office will not consider patents for this area, being convinced by DoE that it is impossible.

I'm well aware of the Internet meme, but I've had trouble finding the sources from whence it sprang. Those sources that I have been able to find don't quite prove the point.

[parallel]

From Vortex.

[Vo]:Rossi, owner of the company through the EFA Ltd. has signed the €500,000 w/ Department of Physics Univ Bologna

Ahsoka Tano
Fri, 25 Nov 2011 16:46:45 -0800

According to this Italian article, the deed is done. Isn't this proof that
there was a buyer of the mega-eCat and that Rossi has the money to sign the contract with UniBol?

The entrepreneur Andrea Rossi, owner of the company through the EFA Ltd., Department of Physics and signed the contract
http://corrieredibologna.corriere.it/bo ... 3518.shtml

"Our interest is very strong - declares Capiluppi Paul, director of the
department - there is much curiosity, but for us it is true only what we can
measure. " To activate the contract we want to pay (be paid?) the first
installment of the contribution, 500 000 euros in two years, that Jones* has
committed to provide for all costs. "We should be starting soon, in a few weeks
- Campari tells Henry, professor of experimental physics and the scientific
research with Giuseppe Levi - in summer you could have the first scientific
report of the results obtained disclose to scientific journals."

*Jones: Not sure how Google Translate caused Rossi to be translated to Jones;
Smith, Jones, whatever.

Original text:
«Il nostro interesse è fortissimo — dichiara Paolo Capiluppi, direttore del
dipartimento —, c’è molta curiosità, ma per noi è vero solo ciò che possiamo
misurare». Per rendere attivo il contratto ci vuole il versamento della prima
rata del contributo, 500 mila euro in due anni, che Rossi si è impegnato a dare
per sostenere tutti i costi. «Dovremmo partire a breve, tra qualche settimana —
confida Enrico Campari, docente di fisica sperimentale e responsabile
scientifico della ricerca con Giuseppe Levi —, in estate si potrebbero avere i
primi report scientifici dei risultati ottenuti che divulgheremo alle riviste
scientifiche».

[ladajo]

Interesting that Rossi has not yet said anything yet about handing over a unit and permitting a public reporting of results.
Looks like his "two days of talks" with the Mass Crowd got really quiet as well.
Be watching the news over next week.

[JoeP]

James Randi predicts Rossi is likely scamming for big profits for selling stock.

Interview video link

[Betruger]

What would that mean for Defkalion?

[polyill]

James Randi predicts Rossi is likely scamming for big profits for selling stock.

Interview video link

James is cute.

[JoeP]

Interesting that Rossi has not yet said anything yet about handing over a unit and permitting a public reporting of results.
Looks like his "two days of talks" with the Mass Crowd got really quiet as well.
Be watching the news over next week.

Don't know how accurate the source is for this, but:
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40 ... 56707.html

If true, this supports what I was wondering earlier. Why did Rossi meet with MIT and Massachusetts state officials if he wasn't planning on any kind of deal? The "publicity bonus" is overshadowed by his flat refusals when the testing of his device is brought up. Sends off the warning bells for sure.

I'm maintain a small hope he is just playing his hand close to the vest to prevent his IP from getting revealed, but this is not encouraging, if accurate. Smelling more and more like a scam, unfortunately.

[parallel]

Interesting that Rossi has not yet said anything yet about handing over a unit and permitting a public reporting of results.
Looks like his "two days of talks" with the Mass Crowd got really quiet as well.
Be watching the news over next week.

Don't know how accurate the source is for this, but:
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40 ... 56707.html

If true, this supports what I was wondering earlier. Why did Rossi meet with MIT and Massachusetts state officials if he wasn't planning on any kind of deal? The "publicity bonus" is overshadowed by his flat refusals when the testing of his device is brought up. Sends off the warning bells for sure.

I'm maintain a small hope he is just playing his hand close to the vest to prevent his IP from getting revealed, but this is not encouraging, if accurate. Smelling more and more like a scam, unfortunately.

It is no surprise that Rossi refused further tests. He has said, several times, that Oct 6th was the last test. He has every reason to mistrust MIT who fudged the P & F report and is chock full of hot fusion physicists who stand to lose grant money and reputation.

The other way of looking at it is that he knows the E-Cat works and he is getting touchy about people still doubting his word. He has signed an agreement with Bologna U. and says that much of their work will remain confidential. B.U. states (above) that at least the performance figures will be released.

I understand that the pathological skeptics will maintain that anything Rossi does is suspicious, but that is because they firmly believe the LENR is impossible. In fact, Rossi has the upper hand if the E-Cat does indeed work and refusing further tests isn't going to alter that.

[rcain]

...
I understand that the pathological skeptics will maintain that anything Rossi does is suspicious, but that is because they firmly believe the LENR is impossible....

not true. the thing people are 'pathologically skeptical' about is Rossi, not LENR.

....
In fact, Rossi has the upper hand if the E-Cat does indeed work and refusing further tests isn't going to alter that.

i disagree. if there is anything in it (LENR), and Rossi continues 'messing about' like he is, i predict he will be beaten to market by someone else; someone else being capable of a 'convincing' experiment and a 'credible' explanation. if there is anything in 'it', putting together such a demonstration, and a darn sight better one that any of Rossi's, will not be difficult.

furthermore, they will use Rossi's 'caginess' against him, competitively. he will end up losing the lot.

[JoeP]

Interesting that Rossi has not yet said anything yet about handing over a unit and permitting a public reporting of results.
Looks like his "two days of talks" with the Mass Crowd got really quiet as well.
Be watching the news over next week.

Don't know how accurate the source is for this, but:
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40 ... 56707.html

If true, this supports what I was wondering earlier. Why did Rossi meet with MIT and Massachusetts state officials if he wasn't planning on any kind of deal? The "publicity bonus" is overshadowed by his flat refusals when the testing of his device is brought up. Sends off the warning bells for sure.

I'm maintain a small hope he is just playing his hand close to the vest to prevent his IP from getting revealed, but this is not encouraging, if accurate. Smelling more and more like a scam, unfortunately.

It is no surprise that Rossi refused further tests. He has said, several times, that Oct 6th was the last test. He has every reason to mistrust MIT who fudged the P & F report and is chock full of hot fusion physicists who stand to lose grant money and reputation.

[SNIP]

I'd buy that if Rossi simply refused to meet with MIT and Massachusetts state officials in the first place. But according to this source, he goes to a two day meeting and then refuses to consider a black box test (which would protect his IP). The state probably wanted some proof before offering incentives to set up shop there; it is an obvious requirement. Rossi knew this before going in. So why bother? Seems foolish and ramps up the SCAM meter as much as the supposed "publicity" boon.