10KW LENR Demonstrator?

[Axil]

www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ChubbTAradiationl.pdf

Here is a quantum mechanical based explanation of what is going on in the Ni H LENR system.

The hydrogen must reside on the surface of the metal to form a composite quantum mechanical system of many ionically connected hydrogen atoms. Such a picture is appropriate for unbound particles; and not a chemically bound system like NiH.

Ni nano-powder maximizes surface area which in turn maximizes and amplifies the cross section of all nuclear reactions in the multi-atom hydrogen configuration. Quantum mechanically speaking, these individual hydrogen atoms loss there unique identity; they get confused. Nuclear reactions that rarely happen to any singe particular atom or atom pair happen all the time to a collection of many unbound N particle system.

The multi-atom hydrogen configuration of unbound particles must be considered a single quantum wave function where the nuclear reaction happens to the group of atoms (in quantum wave form) as a whole and not to any particular individual particle.

[happyjack27]

thanks for that. now that i have a little more background in quantum mechanics i can probably understand a little more, and in any case that's whats ultimately needed: a quantum mechanical description. though there is still a lot that is foreign to me (e.g. "bloch").

i'm struggling a little with your last sentence/ paragraph. you're suggesting that since it's a condensed matter phase there's a higher order of coherency at larger distance scales so you really have to take that into account quite explicitly rather than treating them as, as it were, free particles in a gaseous state?

[Axil]

The regularity imposed on the hydrogen by the crystal surface (111) of the metal imposes coherent states of stationary Bloch waves as in a Bose Einstein Condensate. This coherent state does not exist in an elemental hydrogen gas. It is this regularity of coherent states that increases the cross section of nuclear processes which is proportional to the number of particles in the coherent state.

[tomclarke]

www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ChubbTAradiationl.pdf

Here is a quantum mechanical based explanation of what is going on in the Ni H LENR system.

The hydrogen must reside on the surface of the metal to form a composite quantum mechanical system of many ionically connected hydrogen atoms. Such a picture is appropriate for unbound particles; and not a chemically bound system like NiH.

Ni nano-powder maximizes surface area which in turn maximizes and amplifies the cross section of all nuclear reactions in the multi-atom hydrogen configuration. Quantum mechanically speaking, these individual hydrogen atoms loss there unique identity; they get confused. Nuclear reactions that rarely happen to any singe particular atom or atom pair happen all the time to a collection of many unbound N particle system.

The multi-atom hydrogen configuration of unbound particles must be considered a single quantum wave function where the nuclear reaction happens to the group of atoms (in quantum wave form) as a whole and not to any particular individual particle.

OK - coherent electron wave functions is possible in such a system - though pretty rare for nanoscale coherence at room temperature.

But that is the electrons, not the nuclei. For them to have any quantumn coherence is quite impossible. Each is a very small many-body system, and they interact trivially at normal densities. You would need neutron star density to get possible inter-nucleus quantum coherence.

[Axil]

www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ChubbTAradiationl.pdf

Here is a quantum mechanical based explanation of what is going on in the Ni H LENR system.

The hydrogen must reside on the surface of the metal to form a composite quantum mechanical system of many ionically connected hydrogen atoms. Such a picture is appropriate for unbound particles; and not a chemically bound system like NiH.

Ni nano-powder maximizes surface area which in turn maximizes and amplifies the cross section of all nuclear reactions in the multi-atom hydrogen configuration. Quantum mechanically speaking, these individual hydrogen atoms loss there unique identity; they get confused. Nuclear reactions that rarely happen to any singe particular atom or atom pair happen all the time to a collection of many unbound N particle system.

The multi-atom hydrogen configuration of unbound particles must be considered a single quantum wave function where the nuclear reaction happens to the group of atoms (in quantum wave form) as a whole and not to any particular individual particle.

OK - coherent electron wave functions is possible in such a system - though pretty rare for nanoscale coherence at room temperature.

But that is the electrons, not the nuclei. For them to have any quantumn coherence is quite impossible. Each is a very small many-body system, and they interact trivially at normal densities. You would need neutron star density to get possible inter-nucleus quantum coherence.

The way I read the paper: this Ion Band State Theory deals with coherence associated with the collective action of electrons. The requirement is that the group of hydrogen atoms must fall into the same quantum mechanical state to negate their mutual electro-repulsive effects that usually stop the fusion of atomic nuclei. In effect, all the hydrogen atoms in their collective action combine into one quantum wave form (think waves not particles) within the coherent group and behave as one spread out atom where the probability of nuclei interactions increase within the collection. Any sub atomic coherence among the various hydrogen nuclei is not the issue or required.

“though pretty rare for nanoscale coherence at room temperature.”

This is true. With regards to rarity, with many billions of nickel dust particles in play at any given point in time, there will always be some few that meet the requirements for fusion; it’s a low probability thing in a system of large numbers.

“But that is the electrons, not the nuclei. For them to have any quantumn coherence is quite impossible.”

I wonder. There may be a way to tell if this statement is true. One experiment that can determine if the Ion Band State Theory has an effect on the weak nuclear force is to run the Russi device using tritium as the reaction gas.

If there is an increase detected in the beta decay of tritium caused by quantum coherency, then increased transmutation of elements through the increase in the weak nuclear force activity is indicated.

In detail, higher levels in H3 into He3 via beta decay transmutation will be detected with an observation of an increase in expected levels of He3 production.


In short, if this experiment shows positive results, then quantum coherence increases radioactive decay. Currently without any proof and as a matter of faith, I believe this to be true.

[polyill]

Hello all,

Having been reading Talk-Polywell for a while I've been a silent one, since the level of technical discussions here is beyond me, and I have no intention whats or ever to engage in the political off-topic that sparkles here and there on this forum, not because I am an apolitical person, but rather a citizen of an entirely different State.

I feel the urge to talk now.

I can understand why and how all of us excited by another shiny 'maybe' on the horizon and the cool theoretical problems and wonderful technical challenges it may present, vigorously discussed hereabout, but...

I feel you are really missing the point here, lads, and the point being the Rossi-Focardi thing is more and more smells like a scam.

Some people (IvyMike et al) have already expressed their concerns on the issue, to which I must add.

Haven't seen any regards to the post which links to NewEnergyTimes blog - the story told there is pretty convincing to me... and by the way the Google Translation to English of the PetrolDragon article in Italian Wiki made perfect sense despite what someone here wrote.

Have anybody checked out the story of the alleged inventor of the process that Rossi wants to exploit? BTW in NewEnergyTimes' last post two 2008 articles are linked which among other interesting things provide some images of the devices and some drawings that seem more detailed than what Rossi provides on his site - someone here wanted such?

More straight-forward approach would be to look at the image depicting the said A. Rossi besides the apparatus he "promotes" :


The image is taken from a followup article about the issue in the russian language science-n-tech news site rnd.cnews.ru

What do we see here? We see two gentlemen the left of whom (A.Rossi) has a face of a dirty salesman and an appearance of someone trying to look "academical" (i mean the hair-do mostly . Seriously, just look at his face! Now his posture - his leaning on a man that seems to be twice his age in a very frivolous manner, his body language expresses patronization of the elder person. What do you think the name of that poor granpa clutching his hands and his jaw, struggling to stand straight ? That's right - this is Sergio Focardi, who is mentioned as the co-author of the H-Ni method together with Francesco Piantelli in the aforementioned NewEnergyTimes articles (new and 2008 ones) and the (again) Italian Wiki article about, well, Cold Fusion. The exact quote where the two are mentioned:

3. Deuterium gas cell or hydrogen [ edit ]
Some scientists, for example, Yoshiaki Arata , Piantelli Francesco and Francesco Celani, have made these cells dry , in which instead of a liquid electrolyte is a gas such as deuterium or hydrogen, while the cathode is palladium or nickel ; in these cathodes, using appropriate techniques, may accumulate a large amount of gas.
The amount of gas accumulated in the crystal lattice of the metal up to about one atom of gas for each metal atom. A build-up so high, under certain conditions not yet fully known, it can trigger abnormal heat generation phenomena.
The advantage of such cells, compared to electrolysis, is the possibility to perform experiments under controlled conditions and, therefore, reproducible.
Examples of cell gas:
Nickel-hydrogen cell, Sergio Focardi and Frank Piantelli (link)
Cell nanoparticles of palladium and deuterium gas Oshiaki Arata (link)

I will tell you what's going on here, as I see it. Two elderly professors (Focardi and Piantelli) dedicate their careers to fusion but stayed poor and unsuccessful (there are no dedicated Wikipedia articles for them, for at least). Piantelli and some Japanese guy grabbed an ISCMNS (?) award in 1995. ISCMNS is not a credible organization as far as I can tell (you wont find it in Wiki either, the google search for Piantelli and / or ISCMNS is scenic, do it yourself - Checkout the ResearchGate page for Piantelli ), anyways, Piantelli got tired and now does not answer phones, according to NewEnergyTimes, while elderly Focardi has fallen it the web of a notorious scam-producer, who has served jail in the past, and who now claims HE invented the appartus over a course of 20 years of blood sweat and tears (it's on his blog in comments for their "demonstartion").

Guys, this is classics of both scam and pseudo-science.

[Skipjack]

When these alpha and beta emitters are inside the body, they have greatly increase radiological effects on organ systems; up to 20 times more than gammas. In the case of tritium, it can be incorporated into the body where its remains and irradiates for an extended period.

Yes, yes, I know that.
But there are other energy production methods that also produce Tritium and that even need the Tritium. So I dont quite understand why that is such a huge issue for this device unless you are planning to sell it to end consumers. Even then I am not sure whether the Tritium would not be used up emmediately in the "side reactions" that I mentioned earlier.
That was my point anyway. In any case this is a pointless discussion as long as it looks like this device does not even work

and more smells like a scum.

Pssst, I think you mean "scam". Rossi may be scum (if everything said about him is true), but what he is doing is a "scam".

[polyill]

10x Skipjack, I stand corrected

[KitemanSA]

Folks, I can't really be absolutely positive, but it seems unlikely to me that the way a man parts his hair or leans on another man has an physical relationship to how such a mechanism may or may not work.

Can we keep such discussions of hair tonic and shoe choice in "General" where it belongs? Please?

[Enginerd]

Folks, I can't really be absolutely positive, but it seems unlikely to me that the way a man parts his hair or leans on another man has an physical relationship to how such a mechanism may or may not work.

Agreed. Yet I still think their fashion sense is relevant -- to the extent that we have pictures of them wearing heavy winter coats in the smallish looking room with their alleged 10kW power plant.... If their device is really making all the heat anyone could ever want for free, I would expect to see them wearing shorts and sweltering in the free sauna, not winter coats.

[KitemanSA]

Folks, I can't really be absolutely positive, but it seems unlikely to me that the way a man parts his hair or leans on another man has an physical relationship to how such a mechanism may or may not work.

Agreed. Yet I still think their fashion sense is relevant -- to the extent that we have pictures of them wearing heavy winter coats in the smallish looking room with their alleged 10kW power plant.... If their device is really making all the heat anyone could ever want for free, I would expect to see them wearing shorts and sweltering in the free sauna, not winter coats.

Oh please. They are wearing a standard business attire of coat and tie. I've seen folks wear this uniform in 90 degree heat rether than go "casual".

Please, I'll stop if you do! If you MUST contiue this line, PLEASE start a topic in General, PLEASE?

[polyill]

@KaitmanSA

It is merely "news" either - the lads got old making this machine do, whatever it does or not... The "news" part is the scam, not the machine.

The fact which IS worth discussion is how the shameless and evil take advantage of weak and needing. And how others are blinded by their own agenda not to even notice that. But then again - it's lyrics, not physics.

I do appreciate your trying to be positive, though.

With this said, I am shutting it.

[Enginerd]

Oh please. They are wearing a standard business attire of coat and tie. I've seen folks wear this uniform in 90 degree heat rether than go "casual".

I was referring to this:
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5163/535 ... 9794_z.jpg
None the less, I'm done.

[parallel]

This seems to be a definitive description of what happened at the demonstration made by an onlooker.


http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJbrieftechn.pdf

[Tom Ligon]

Evidently they need to know something about the hydrogen flow. I don't see that anywhere, and oxidation of hydrogen would appear to be potentially a very significant source of heat.

I would propose that independent observers be permitted to supply the power metering, thermocouple meters, and water and hydrogen flow metering, as well as any other external "proofs". Induction or RF heating from a hidden source ought to be easy to sense.

The calorimetery is unimpressive, no more sophisticated than what I've done with a couple of thermocouples and a small hot water heater tank to measure output of a solar panel. It is potentially "lossy", but that actually means heat production could have been higher than reported. I personally would have avoided going to steam, and looked instead at water temperature rise and flow rate. The temperature levels are improbably constant ... it is hard to hold 0.1 C with a PID temperature controller, much less a process known to be prone to spurts of activity.

And, of course, longer duration monitoring.

Finally, after adequate signing of NDAs and other IP protections, nothing will substitute for independent confirmation. The invention is useless unless it can be replicated and used elsewhere ... let others tinker with it. No fraud can survive that scrutiny. Rothwell knows his way around LENR, and could spot a fraud. I appreciate that he has withheld judgement, but he probably has an opinion and would love to do what I propose above.