10KW LENR Demonstrator?

[happyjack27]

happyjack27,

Quote "just that those happen to be the de facto requirements to get a paper or alternatively patent request accepted."

To get a patent in this area, Rossi was refused because he didn't have an acceptable, peer reviewed theory. Now the only way to get a paper published seems to be if he discloses everything. See the problem?

yes. it kinda sucks for him. i'm not saying it doesn't. that' kind of thing is why sometimes people will prefer to keep something a trade secret rather than going for a patent. also patents are pretty hard to get and it takes a long time and they can be pretty easy to work around anyways. all in all the system kind of sucks. i'm not disputing that.

[Axil]

The ‘secret catalysts’ are the key to the improved performance of the Rossi device. It is probably platinum (or some element(s) in the platinum family… Palladium?). Other work on Lenr suggests a 15% mixture.


Recent work on hydrogen fuel cells have shown that by adding nickel to platinum you can increases the ionic binding power generated by the surface of the catalyst for hydrogen by at least 10 fold. Furthermore, by varying the composition of the catalyst, it is possible to precisely control the layout of the hydrogen atoms on the surface of the catalyst. You want to get the surface into a flawless (111) crystal configuration.


Besides copper, Rossi is not telling us what other constituent elements are found in the “ash’ of the device reaction. If you know what that ash element makeup is, then the identity of the catalyst(s) is easily deduced.


If you find silver, then you know the catalyst is Palladium, if you find gold, then you know the catalyst is Platinum. If you know what elements are in the ash of the Rossi reaction, you know how the device works.


On another note, Deuterium stops the reaction because it interferes with the coherence of the hydrogen atoms on the surface of the nickel catalyst. It ensure atomic coherence, all the atoms on the surface of the nano-particle must be of the same isotopic type (The most common isotope of hydrogen is protium (1H) with a single proton and no neutrons.) …deuterium and tritium must be excluded.


The Rossi reaction is turning hydrogen into a zero energy neutron through reverse beta decay.


The real genius of the Rossi design (if it is not a scam) is the efficiency and magnitude (cross section) of the reverse beta decay phenomena.


The key design factors that optimize the Rossi process is the size, shape and uniformity (small partials will produce faster neutrons) of the nano-particle and the atomic structure of the nickel/palladium(?) crystals on the surface of the nano-particles.

[KitemanSA]

How bout a political solution. Create "Provisional Patents". "If it works as you say it works, the patent is enforcable".

Hmmm.

[Axil]

Look at

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/44571

Nobody really knows how nuclear fission really works. That has not stopped the “regulators” from issuing patents for “traditional nuclear reactors”

Rossi should just put out a theory…the most likely… and say “prove me wrong”.

[chrismb]

If you find silver, then you know the catalyst is Palladium, if you find gold, then you know the catalyst is Platinum.

Oh, really...

Your term 'catalyst' means what, then, exactly. Your term 'find' means some ppm figure detectable?

Keep spinning the yarn... [what's in it for you?]

[Enginerd]

Besides copper, Rossi is not telling us what other constituent elements are found in the “ash’ of the device reaction. If you know what that ash element makeup is, then the identity of the catalyst(s) is easily deduced.


If you find silver, then you know the catalyst is Palladium, if you find gold, then you know the catalyst is Platinum.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Great. Show us the before and after chemical composition reports and we'll have something to talk about. I would love to see a detailed analysis of the elemental makeup of the reactants before and after. Preferably with the before and after analysis performed by several independent labs. Clearly if alchemy is afoot, that would be more than sufficient to prove it to all the skeptics (such as myself).

Thus far, we have seen little evidence this thing even works, other than a quite possibly rigged demo. If Rossi is willing to subject his device to detailed scrutiny by a group of independent 3rd parties, then great. That would certainly boost confidence.

I'm sure we would all love to see the device pumping out heat for weeks on end, with detailed data on the exact temp and flow rate of input H2, and exact temp and flow rate of input H2O, and exact voltage and amperage of input electricity. We need to know this thing is not simply oxidizing tanks full of H2 or running on batteries. I would also expect to see details on the exact magnitude and spectra of all output electromagnetic radiation, and exact output volume of all reaction products. If the device works, yet is pumping out tons of hard gammas or tritium, it would still be very useful, but I certainly wouldn't want the thing in my basement.

It seems reasonable that he could easily provide such evidence without anyone needing to see inside his magic black box.

[Axil]

Keep spinning the yarn... [what's in it for you?]

I am just curious.

I first became interested in Lenr when I read this very pure and simple experiment that anybody can run in their basement.

www.zpenergy.com/downloads/Porringa_ZPE.pdf

Consumption of the electrodes was observed to take
place primarily at the anode end of each of the pellets. Visible, microgram
quantities of iron or nickel containing carbon residue could be extracted
from the cell in less than 10 minutes using a small 5 mm diameter polished
Neodymium magnet. The relatively large quantity that can be collected even
within the first ten minutes would indicate the initial conditions of the cell
may be the most conducive for the formation of iron and presumably other
elements.

The experimenter starts out with just pure carbon and water and by electric arching, creates in this easily reproducible experiment over 20 elements up to and including lead.

In a short time iron can be remove from the initially pure water by using a magnet.

This transmutation just amazed me. I did not buy the explanation the experimenter put forth and determined to devise a theory that could explain such strangeness.

After reading many Lenr experiments, I have a conceptual framework that explains most of the results. But I must admit that transmutation in exploding foil experiments are still beyond me.

I can’t help but fit a new experiment into my Lenr conceptual framework as a test of its validity.

Based on my theory of causation, I feel that Lenr will never efficiently produce electric power or high temperature process heat. But it could solve the nuclear waste problem by rapidly transmuting those hot isotopes produced in traditional reactors into a stable and safe form.

[Skipjack]

first became interested in Lenr when I read this very pure and simple experiment that anybody can run in their basement.

Did you actually try this experiment yourself?

[Enginerd]

The experimenter starts out with just pure carbon and water and by electric arching, creates in this easily reproducible experiment over 20 elements up to and including lead.

In a short time iron can be remove from the initially pure water by using a magnet.

This transmutation just amassed me. I did not buy the explanation the experimenter put forth and determined to devise a theory that could explain such strangeness.

The electric arc experiment may (or may not) do what is claimed. If so that would be truly fantastic. When I was a kid, I used to take apart D-cell batteries and use the carbon rods to make electric arcs. I never noticed anything but heat, light, and my mom yelling at me to quit that before I burned the house down or electrocuted myself. I never saw any evidence of new elements being produced. But maybe... Seems easy enough to try.

Small wonder however if such claims are not taken seriously, given their chosen label of "ZIPP fusion", which apparently is short for "ZEIPPIEN fusion", which apparently is an acronym for "Zero-Point Energy Induced Plasma Pinch of Ionized Entrained Nuclei". Claims of zero point energy based fusion, alchemy, and/or power generation immediately flash warning signs that one is about to encounter pseudoscience from people who forgot to take an Introduction to Thermodynamics class.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy0UBpagsu8

[Axil]

first became interested in Lenr when I read this very pure and simple experiment that anybody can run in their basement.

Did you actually try this experiment yourself?

Since it was repeated a number of times I felt no need to personally verify it. Most theorists do not verify the experiments that they try to explain. Just like most experimentalist can’t explain what is really going on inside their experiments.

IMHO, the theorist is safe in trusting the intellectual integrity of many hundreds of experimentalists as an actuarial certainty especially when no money is at stake because they all can’t be scammers. Yes some very few but certainly not all.

[Axil]

I used to take apart D-cell batteries and use the carbon rod to make electric arcs. I never noticed anything but heat, light, and my mom yelling at me to quit that before I burned the house down or electrocuted myself. But maybe... Seems easy enough to try.

Extreme purity is required to achieve a coherent atomic assemblage in which a Bose Einstein condensate can form.



The carbon rod from D-cell batteries just won’t do the job.



If you notice that in the electric ark experiment, the performance of the transmutation decreased as the water became contaminated by trace ash.


The ash interfered with the formation of the Bose Einstein condensate where reverse beta decay is accelerated by quantum mechanical wave amplification. A Bose Einstein condensate requires a pure atomic assemblage.


Specifically in my view, this effect happens on the inter surface of the cavitation bubbles formed by the energy of the electric ark.


At some phase in the collapse of the cavitation bubble, surface tension forces act to create an ionic based Bose Einstein condensate where Lenr happens.


All “cold fusion” reactions are concurrent with cavatation bubble formation. It is Lenr that is happing in these experiments and not fusion.


Even through the heat and pressure inside a cavatation bubble is very large, they are not large enough to precipitate a fusion reaction.

[Skipjack]

IMHO, the theorist is safe in trusting the intellectual integrity of many hundreds of experimentalists as an actuarial certainty especially when no money is at stake because they all can’t be scammers.

And where are those "hundreds of experimentalists"? Have they written any papers on that that have been published in peer reviewed magazines (real ones)?
Where did you meet those hundreds of people, or is that only based on the quote made by someone?
I have never heard of such an experiment, nor have I met anyone who did it. Not even a single persion. Given, I dont do this for a living, but if there are "hundreds" of them, as you claim, then they make themselves sparse.

[Axil]

IMHO, the theorist is safe in trusting the intellectual integrity of many hundreds of experimentalists as an actuarial certainty especially when no money is at stake because they all can’t be scammers.

And where are those "hundreds of experimentalists"? Have they written any papers on that that have been published in peer reviewed magazines (real ones)?
Where did you meet those hundreds of people, or is that only based on the quote made by someone?
I have never heard of such an experiment, nor have I met anyone who did it. Not even a single persion. Given, I dont do this for a living, but if there are "hundreds" of them, as you claim, then they make themselves sparse.

Take a look at

http://www.lenr-canr.org/LibFrame1.html

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


The phrase "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" was popularized by Dr Carl Sagan (1934 - 1996), a well-known astronomer and author who hosted a TV series called "Cosmos," published hundreds of scientific articles, and was professor of astronomy at Cornell University in New York. The statement is self explanatory; if someone makes an extraordinary claim, there better be extraordinary evidence to back it up. If, for example, someone made the claim that an alien race has made contact with earth, we would need sufficient evidence to verify the claim, such as an alien space craft, or an actual alien. The extraordinary claim would need extraordinary evidence.


At the heart of "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" is a healthy and normal skepticism. There are far too many charlatans and con-men in the world who make extraordinary claims without evidence to back them up. Unfortunately, too many people lack the necessary skepticism and critical thinking skills to help them avoid being duped by con artists and wild theories. Personally, except for a few qualifications, I agree with the sentiment of the statement "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."


Requiring extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims sounds good on the surface. But, it is subjective. The fact is that a person's presuppositions strongly affect how and to what degree the statement is applied.


Much advancement in human knowledge was criticized by the experts of the day as unfounded and without basis. Take Galileo Galilei (15 February 1564 – 8 January 1642) for example. For those who don’t know, he was an Italian physicist, mathematician, astronomer, and philosopher who played a major role in the Scientific Revolution. His achievements included astronomical observations that supported Copernicanism. Galileo has been called the "father of modern observational astronomy," the "father of modern physics," the "father of science," and "the Father of Modern Science." Stephen Hawking says, "Galileo, perhaps more than any other single person, was responsible for the birth of modern science."


His ideas were revolutionary and incompatible with main stream thinking that kept the Church in power and in control of the masses. He was eventually denounced by the Roman Inquisition early in 1615. Although he was cleared of any offence at that time, the Catholic Church nevertheless condemned heliocentrism as "false and contrary to Scripture" in February 1616.


The same was true for LOUIS PASTEUR. His theory of microbial disease was motivated by personal and national tragedy. In 1865 his father died. His two daughters were lost to typhoid fever in 1866. Grief-stricken, he determined to overcome this plague rooted in human ignorance; he overworked and, Pasteur suffered a cerebral hemorrhage caused by a broken blood vessel in the brain in 1868. Part of his left arm and leg were permanently paralyzed. Nevertheless, he pressed on.


Pasteur saw the trains of wounded men coming home from the Franco-German War (1870–71; war fought to prevent unification under German rule). He urged the military medical corps to adopt his theory that disease and infection were caused by microbes. First they laughed, then the military medical corps unwillingly agreed to sterilize their instruments and bandages, treating them with heat to kill microbes. The results were spectacular, and in 1873 Pasteur was made a member of the French Academy of Medicine—a remarkable accomplishment for a man without a formal medical degree.


The claim which is the subject of this post is just as revolutionary and consequential to humanity as those of Galileo Galilei, LOUIS PASTEUR, and Copernicus. It flies in the face of all the text books and will rock the world of nuclear physics.



Just because we don’t understand a certain phenomena, it does not mean it is invalid, you need to get to the bottom of it. There is something strange and unexplained going on in phenomena like Lenr, cold fusion, sonofusion, and, in this case all involved with the subject of this thread..


Science has the pressing responsibility to jump in here and find out the facts to the best of our abilities.

[Skipjack]

I see a list of people doing LENR research. I do not see a list of people that replicated this particular experiment.

[Axil]

I see a list of people doing LENR research. I do not see a list of people that replicated this particular experiment.

M. Singh, Saksena M., V. Dixit, and V. Kartha, “Verification of the George
Oshawa Experiment for Anomalous Production of Iron From Carbon Arc in
Water”, Fusion Technology, Vol 26, Pg 266, November 1994.

R. Sundaresan, J. Bockris, “Anomalous Reactions During Arcing Between
Carbon Rods in Water”, Fusion Technology, Vol 26, Pg 261, November 1994.

M. Kushi and G. Oshawa, Kushi Institute Study Guide, Vol 10, Pg 1, 1980.

G. Oshawa, “George Oshawa’s Transmutation Experiments”, East-West
Magazine, March 1965

The various researchers who worked on the transmutation of carbon to iron in like experiments:

George Ohsawa-Philosopher, writer, honorary professor at Nippon University,
honorary citizen of Paris, founder and president of Institut des Hautes Etudes
Dialectiques et Scientifiques, Tokyo.

Masashiro Torii-Doctor of chemistry, professor at Musashino Institute of
Technology, Tokyo.

Shizuko Washio-Doctor of biology, professor at Atomi University, Tokyo.

Sanehide Komaki-Doctor of agriculture, professor at Mukogawa University, Kyoto.

Chikao Narita-Doctor of medicine, president of Tokyo Shibaura Hospital, Tokyo.

Yuzuru Sasaki-Research member of Institute des Hautes Etudes Dialectiques et
Scientifiques, Tokyo.

Noburu Yamamoto-Research member of Institut des Hautes Etudes Dialectiques et
Scientifiques, Tokyo.