10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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Betruger
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Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 11:54 am

Post by Betruger »

parallel wrote:stefanbanev
To compare Rossi with Tesla is really a disservice. There is a real contribution Tesla did and there is a folklore around Tesla - the folklore part what really makes him a humorous/freaky & tragic figure and it reflects mostly not Tesla's accomplishments but people stupidity...
To begin with, the author did not compare Rossi with Tesla.
semantics
Secondly, IF the E-Cat works it will transform the world at least as much as Tesla did.
not attributable to Rossi the way that Tesla's discoveries and development were, and so far there's no certainty of how much juice the "ecat" actually delivers - micromechanical level of useful energy, or truly world changing output that's on par with everything up to, or even beyond, e.g. nuclear power plants.
Doesn't sound like you followed the link and read the whole piece.
Not surprising: this whole Rossi affair is beyond long in the tooth. No data, no credible experimental method, no satisfaction of promises, shady past, etc. You think some superfluous newspaper writing is a substitute? What a joke. Vaporware from A to Z.
Failure to do one's homework is the reason so much junk is posted here.
You do see the parallel between what you wrote above and what Rossi's delivered so far, right?

ScottL
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Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:26 pm

Post by ScottL »

parallel wrote:stefanbanev
To compare Rossi with Tesla is really a disservice. There is a real contribution Tesla did and there is a folklore around Tesla - the folklore part what really makes him a humorous/freaky & tragic figure and it reflects mostly not Tesla's accomplishments but people stupidity...
To begin with, the author did not compare Rossi with Tesla.
Secondly, IF the E-Cat works it will transform the world at least as much as Tesla did.
Doesn't sound like you followed the link and read the whole piece.

Failure to do one's homework is the reason so much junk is posted here.
The quote below from the article you posted is designed specifically for the reader to draw that comparison.
Is Andrea Rossi the world's greatest inventor since Nikola Telsa and the savior of mankind, or is he one of the worst scoundrels of the year?
It assumes by invoking Tesla, that the reader know the achievements of Tesla and then asks if Rossi has equivalent achievements to have met or exceeded those of Tesla.
IF the E-Cat works it will transform the world at least as much as Tesla did.
While agreeing it would change the world, I point this sentence out to note you finally using the word IF vs stating definitively. Perhaps there's hope here yet.

303
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Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:18 am

Post by 303 »

IF? come on guys, get real.

heres what we know for sure

rossi got his 'qualifications' from a 'university' that handed out degrees like chocolate, and been shut down for fraud

rossi has been convicted of fraud

not a single 'demo' of the e-cat is in any way, impressive, scientific, or has established beyond reasonable doubt that it produces more power than went into it.

e-cat should be renamed to bull-shit because thats all it seems to be, time to put away the rose-tinted specs, parallel, it would be great if it works, but it doesn't, so lets move on.

Betruger
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Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 11:54 am

Post by Betruger »

Seem being key word. Rossi doesn't matter. Not him or anything he's done that indeed gives him very low credibility. Because despite all that he just might have found something that works, out of sheer luck.

The only thing that matters is seeing what his ecats' guts are made of.

Carl White
Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:44 pm

Post by Carl White »

Let's clean up a bit of misinformation here. I'll quote from Wikipedia.
303 wrote:IF? come on guys, get real.

heres what we know for sure

rossi got his 'qualifications' from a 'university' that handed out degrees like chocolate, and been shut down for fraud
"In 1973, Rossi graduated in Philosophy of Science and Engineering at the University of Milan with a dissertation on Albert Einstein’s Theory of Relativity and its interrelationship with Husserl’s Phenomenology (Honors Degree: 110/110)."

The University of Milan is legitimate.

"In 1979, Rossi was awarded a degree in Chemical Engineering from Kensington University, California (USA), thanks to the numerous professional credits earned there for the many registered patents he acquired since the first years of his professional career."

Kensington was a diploma mill and was shut down. But it isn't clear how Rossi came to obtain this degree, and in any case, the patents are real enough.
rossi has been convicted of fraud
According to Wikipedia, he wasn't convicted, he was jailed for environmental crimes and tax fraud after Petroldragon collapsed, but then acquitted.

http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/2004 ... 7020.shtml
not a single 'demo' of the e-cat is in any way, impressive, scientific, or has established beyond reasonable doubt that it produces more power than went into it.
No public demonstration, anyhow.
e-cat should be renamed to bull-shit because thats all it seems to be, time to put away the rose-tinted specs, parallel, it would be great if it works, but it doesn't, so lets move on.
Nice leap from the reality, which is that despite various suspicions and weird contradictions, we just don't know one way or another, to "it's bullshit".
Last edited by Carl White on Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:59 am, edited 4 times in total.

KitemanSA
Posts: 6179
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA

Post by KitemanSA »

303 wrote: e-cat should be renamed to bull-shit
Nope, way too crude.
How about e-scat? Just a scatological thought.
I wish I could find a convincing technical argument one way of the other.

Joseph Chikva
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Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:30 am

Post by Joseph Chikva »

parallel wrote:IF the E-Cat works it will transform the world at least as much as Tesla did.
Once again:
IF grandmother would have penis she/he will grandfather.
At least one year you repeat the same "if".
It is easy to provide evidence of effect existence but they could not. Instead they have thought up the next fairy tale about secret customer. Not enough?

tomclarke
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Location: London
Contact:

Post by tomclarke »

Joseph Chikva wrote:
parallel wrote:IF the E-Cat works it will transform the world at least as much as Tesla did.
Once again:
IF grandmother would have penis she/he will grandfather.
At least one year you repeat the same "if".
It is easy to provide evidence of effect existence but they could not. Instead they have thought up the next fairy tale about secret customer. Not enough?
This is what is so easily ignored:

Rossi: if he had what he claims we would have evidence of this from at least one of the many different demos. He clearly wants to convince scientists he has something, after all...

LENR: if any of the "wow, there must be something" 20% excess heat for months claims were correct then it would be possible for an LENR researcher to use good calorimetry, like Earthtech's 0.1% accuracy calorimeter to nail it. This has never happened. (Earthtech have tried various replications, never with conclusive results).

Now that does not in theory rule out some very difficult to find effect with say 0.1% excess heat, which maybe could be optimised when understood. But why on earth should there be such an effect? The whole of CF research comes from trying to explain anomalous heat from experiments. If there is no anomalous heat, why would anyone think CF likely?

The same is true for transmutation evidence. This is less strong than heat evidence (because it is relatively easy to get spurious results from bad calorimetry) and remains within the limits of experimental error + contamination.

The same is true for evidence of high energy particles. It is inconceivable that nuclear reactions should proceed without the generation of high energy decay products. Yet these are not seen. When there are claims, these are within the limits of experiment error, like the "triple pits" on SPAWAR films. Look hard enough at tea leaves, you will find patterns. It is remarkable that with all this effort the CF results remain within experimental error - inconclusive.

All of these things: heat, transmutation, high energy decay products, should be very easy to see and distinguish from background if CF is real.

From which the only rational conclusion is: "no nuclear reactions", since it is inherently unlikely, and we have zero evidence except the hopes of hundreds of researchers.

I remain kindly disposed towards weird effects. It would be wonderful if CF existed. But I have little patience with sloppy engineering and people debating a whole load of "phenomena" without subjecting the results to the sort of careful analysis that would distinguish reality and error.

Rossi is an extreme example of this. He makes claims more strong, and is more obviously flakey, than any other CF. No-one thinks most CF researchers are scammers whereas there must be at least a strong suspicion that Rossi is. Yet his claims get such internet approbation, and even nice write=ups from "The Examiner". Which tells you something about the febrile nature of internet opinion?

Best wishes, Tom

PS - the "agnostic argument" is particularly thoughtless. Thomas Henry Huxley would turn in his grave the way it is applied. Make a scientific claim which has no supporting evidence, no consistent supporting theory, no consistency even as to phenomena expected. Say "it is wrong to dismiss this because we cannot disprove it".

Well I can claim there are green men on the far side of the moon. I can construct entirely plausible theories for how they got there, how they live, why we have never seen them. No-one can disprove this. Yet people would not give them the credibility that Rossi appears to have with some here.

And I don't have a record as a criminal...
Last edited by tomclarke on Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Joseph Chikva
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Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:30 am

Post by Joseph Chikva »

tomclarke wrote:I remain kindly disposed towards weird effects.
Recall how many time flowed from first discovery of radioactivity and first commercial nuclear power plant on slow neutrons. And how many light brains worked on a problem. Do you believe that guy discovered effect (phenomenon) and then commercialized that? Recall that he had not even coffee machine.

I think that less likely that CF fusion is possible. But let's admit that yes - possible. And who is Rossi? The guy who can not measure heat correctly.

Ivy Matt
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Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 6:43 am

Post by Ivy Matt »

parallel wrote:A good article posted here that makes the various points much bettter than the last many pages of crap from posters on this thread.
Andrea Rossi : Sinner or Saint?

Is Andrea Rossi the world's greatest inventor since Nikola Telsa and the savior of mankind, or is he one of the worst scoundrels of the year? It's very difficult to say at this time, but the question really is that basic. There are those who would like to tread some middle ground on the topic, but there is no middle ground available; it's either one way or the other. Today the mystery remains, and we have no way of knowing for sure which is the truth. The good news is that, given a little bit of time and patience, the answer to this question will be clear. Meanwhile this is indeed such an incredibly fun and interesting story to watch unfold.
read the rest here: http://www.examiner.com/paranormal-in-s ... r-or-saint
Okay, I read the whole thing. It wasn't quite as bad as a PESN article, fortunately.
Temperature, density, confinement time: pick any two.

303
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:18 am

Post by 303 »

i believe my three original points are valid

rossi got his 'qualifications' from a 'university' that handed out degrees like chocolate, and been shut down for fraud - is true , patents or not, theres no denying rossi isnt a clever man and can write some papers, but coincedence his next uni was a diploma mill??

rossi has been convicted of fraud - think leopards & spots

not a single 'demo' of the e-cat is in any way, impressive, scientific, or has established beyond reasonable doubt that it produces more power than went into it - this is darn true, i could do better than the infamous steam demo with my kettle & toaster, and i wouldnt need a 500 kw generator plugged in the whole time

if i was rossi, id have that thing blowing more steam than mount vesuvius, see that? price is 5 mil a pop, and then remove my hands before they are bitten off !!!!

stefanbanev
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:12 am

Post by stefanbanev »

Joseph Chikva wrote:
parallel wrote:IF the E-Cat works it will transform the world at least as much as Tesla did.
Once again:
IF grandmother would have penis she/he will grandfather.
At least one year you repeat the same "if".
It is easy to provide evidence of effect existence but they could not. Instead they have thought up the next fairy tale about secret customer. Not enough?
Well, what you said is apparently true, nobody will dispute such truisms why to say something so trivial. Once your assumptions are right the following conclusions are apparently correct...

The fact that you see no creditable evidences supporting the actuality of LENR does not necessarily prove that LENR effect does not exist; it just means that you do not see it - nothing more (good for you).

Your assumption: - "but they could not"

It is a relative observation - if you see no evidences means only that you see no evidences - nothing more.

Here is the link for some who actually is interested to run benchmarks:

http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/2 ... actors.pdf
Last edited by stefanbanev on Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Crawdaddy
Posts: 232
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 5:27 pm

Post by Crawdaddy »

stefanbanev wrote:
Here is the link for some who actually is interested to run benchmarks:

http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/2 ... actors.pdf
Excellent news!

The website forum further specifies that the tests will take place within the next two months.

Let the countdown begin!

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Here is the link for some who actually is interested to run benchmarks:
They are defining the testing protocols. Why? If they are also providing the testing and measuremtent equipment, the test is worthless.

Crawdaddy
Posts: 232
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 5:27 pm

Post by Crawdaddy »

Skipjack wrote:
Here is the link for some who actually is interested to run benchmarks:
They are defining the testing protocols. Why? If they are also providing the testing and measuremtent equipment, the test is worthless.
The tests will be conducted according to mutually agreed upon protocols, as stated in the press release. If you bothered to look at their website and the related forum posts, you would know that the test equipment will be provided by the independent experimenters.

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