10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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parallel
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Post by parallel »

Giorgio wrote:So, UoB finally got bored of him.
I guess you just can't pull the rope forever like he does.
More likely Rossi has found that he has to allocate his time and limited resources to making domestic E-Cats in large quantities.
He is not interested in pleasing the scientific world, there is little satisfaction for him in that compared with selling them to prove the point.
He has probably figured out that once they are released to the public it won't take long to reverse engineer them and he won't be able to get good patent protection. His stated strategy is to sell them at a low enough price to discourage competition.

Betruger
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Post by Betruger »

parallel wrote:jratcliff63367,
I posted the link to your piece three pages back. I thought it was more balanced than your comments above.

The fact is, there is absolutely no proof that Rossi is trying to scam anyone, so I object to those without the patience to wait for more definitive results, who state positively that Rossi is a fraud, scam artist, has no degree, etc. etc.

I think those people, like Dave Barry's dog, have two brain cells and one them died. Yes, I include Betruger in that category.
Aww say it aint so :(
parallel wrote:jratcliff63367
but he does come off as extremely dishonest
.
He has never been convicted of anything except possibly tax evasion (the national sport of Italy) and has not taken investors money for the E-Cat.

Yet you write Rossi is extremely dishonest. Really? Why do you make that statement? Some references would be good.
The statement is comes off as. Get it straight.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

More likely Rossi has found that he has to allocate his time and limited resources to making domestic E-Cats in large quantities.
You really believe that? Come on, man! Even you have to admit that Rossi has been contradicting himself in regards to the UoB so many times now, there is no room for excuses left.

Meanwhile:
http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/01/defkal ... qus_thread

Again it seems like Defkalion will set the rules for the "independent tests".

tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

parallel wrote:
Giorgio wrote:So, UoB finally got bored of him.
I guess you just can't pull the rope forever like he does.
More likely Rossi has found that he has to allocate his time and limited resources to making domestic E-Cats in large quantities.
He is not interested in pleasing the scientific world, there is little satisfaction for him in that compared with selling them to prove the point.
He has probably figured out that once they are released to the public it won't take long to reverse engineer them and he won't be able to get good patent protection. His stated strategy is to sell them at a low enough price to discourage competition.
Parallel. You are doing the universe thing again.

If Rossi has limited resources then all he needs is ONE working e-cat, at high cost, and there are any number of ways too use it to get more resources, all without releasing trade secrets.

Whereas high volume low cost engineering is complex and requires, initially, a working product. It also requires lots of engineering manufacturing expertise, not one man with a dubious 1st degree on scientific philosophy. Of course, with the resources from a single working e-cat all would be in reach.

Now what does that tell you about e-cats working?

And, therefore, where does that indicate you should stick Rossi statements?

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

jratcliff63367 wrote:Guys, I've decided my next article is going to be entitled 'LENR for dummies'. The actual title should be 'The Widom / Larsen Theory For Dummies' but the first title is more catchy.

I get fission. I get fusion. I get E=MC^2. But, for the life of me, I do not 'get' the Widom / Larsen theory. I asked Steven Krivit to explain it to me in laymen terms and he referred me to pages and pages of equations. When I told him the equations were over my head, he said, well, then we have nothing to talk about.

Seriously, can anyone explain the 'Widom / Larsen' theory without equations in a way a layperson can understand using a vocabulary no more advanced than a high school education would require?

I get the impression that even if you have an advanced doctorate degree in theoretical particle physics that the 'Widom / Larsen' theory is a bit daunting to get your head around.

If LENR is 'real', and becomes a 'reality' in the next year, there is going to be a major challenge in communicating the science/theory behind it so the average public can kind of understand. It's so complex, and so difficult, that there is every opportunity for it to be demonized. We already know the America public is easily manipulated by fear, so that shouldn't be too difficult to accomplish.

If it ain't 'fusion' the average Joe is going to ask, well, then what the hell is it?

John
Tom Clarke made a good explanation on page 206.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

parallel wrote:GIThruster,
The fact he bought his degree from Kensington rather than earning one is pretty solid evidence he's a con artist.
(ScottL repeats the same misinformation but then he never comes up with anything original or worth reading.)

Are you stupid or is it you just can’t read?
The fact he purchased a degree from a diploma mill is sufficient to demonstrate in complete clarity that Rossi is a scam artist. Only scam artists purchase fraudulent degrees.

You asked for evidence the guy is a crook. Here's your evidence. He's a crook.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

parallel
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Post by parallel »

GIThruster,
As he had a recognized degree already that isn't proof he is a crook. It is proof that you are stupid.

Torulf2
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Post by Torulf2 »

Do not feed the trolls.

parallel
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Post by parallel »

tomclarke,
If Rossi has limited resources then all he needs is ONE working e-cat, at high cost, and there are any number of ways too use it to get more resources, all without releasing trade secrets.
You missed the point. Rossi states that his business plan is to sell E-Cats at a price low enough to discourage the competition. In order to do that he has to build an expensive, automated factory. That takes a lot of time and money. He probably figured the 500,000 Euro would be better spent doing that - a business decision.

You may guess he thinks he can't get adequate patent protection or it may be easy to reverse engineer, or Defkalion maybe nipping at his heels. No one knows. If there were a good demonstration that proved it worked all hell would break out.

ScottL
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Post by ScottL »

parallel wrote:GIThruster,
As he had a recognized degree already that isn't proof he is a crook. It is proof that you are stupid.
Parallel, you know that comment is against the board rules. It bothers me that you'd believe a person who pursues a degree from a degree mill, so I can only conclude that you do such to save face. There's no shame in hope, but there is shame in knowing your horse is losing and claiming its' winning.

I'm curious though, at what point in time (a date) with lack of devices, will you say it was not to be? Do you have a set deadline that if no progress has been made, you'll turn from Rossi's device and say its fake?

Betruger
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Post by Betruger »

Not only that against the rules, but the unchecked faith based cheerleading is just... unbecoming of this forum & crowd.

Joseph Chikva
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Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:30 am

Post by Joseph Chikva »

parallel wrote:No one knows. If there were a good demonstration...
Again "if"
Unless Rossi had no possibility to make good demonstration before?
Why you think that he can make it in the future?
And if there was not a good demonstration yet, how he is going to get financing? I advise him to take again his "5 kW" device and to do better calorimetry. Let he not disclosure what happens inside. But he should prove 5kW output from that volume during long enough time.
It is easy. But he could not.
And there is not any necessity to say "if".
If have penis - male, if no - female. Trivial as Stefan Banev said.

tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

jratcliff63367 wrote:Guys, I've decided my next article is going to be entitled 'LENR for dummies'. The actual title should be 'The Widom / Larsen Theory For Dummies' but the first title is more catchy.

I get fission. I get fusion. I get E=MC^2. But, for the life of me, I do not 'get' the Widom / Larsen theory. I asked Steven Krivit to explain it to me in laymen terms and he referred me to pages and pages of equations. When I told him the equations were over my head, he said, well, then we have nothing to talk about.

Seriously, can anyone explain the 'Widom / Larsen' theory without equations in a way a layperson can understand using a vocabulary no more advanced than a high school education would require?

I get the impression that even if you have an advanced doctorate degree in theoretical particle physics that the 'Widom / Larsen' theory is a bit daunting to get your head around.

If LENR is 'real', and becomes a 'reality' in the next year, there is going to be a major challenge in communicating the science/theory behind it so the average public can kind of understand. It's so complex, and so difficult, that there is every opportunity for it to be demonized. We already know the America public is easily manipulated by fear, so that shouldn't be too difficult to accomplish.

If it ain't 'fusion' the average Joe is going to ask, well, then what the hell is it?

John
You might want o consider what real experimentalists who do careful calorimetry think of the CF results:
http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang ... why_we.php
Eric #66, I have read maybe 30-50 articles on cold fusion, including those by P&F and some in the last few years. I am an experimentalist, and so I know a lot about doing heat balances and instrumenting apparatus to measure heat production and heat transfer coefficients.

Every well done experiment has been negative, the only “positive” experiments have been poorly done and poorly instrumented. To me, that suggests a pattern that is consistent with the positive experiments being due to error and artifact.

There has not been a continuous improvement in a specific type of cold fusion device where initial prototypes produce low levels of heat and later experiments measure the same levels but with greater precision. Every time positive heat has been measured, it is at the edge of what is measurable. Often they try to make the numbers sound big by converting them from energy into power, but if you look at the actual measurements, all of them are consistent with error.

It would be straightforward to have redundant measurements, to used two different sets of instruments to measure the same thing. If this was a real effect, the two sets of measurements would measure the same thing and would measure the same real effect.

Instrumentation is now trivially inexpensive and has been for a decade. You can buy a 6 1/2 digit data logger for less than $3k which can measure 60 points simultaneously every few seconds. That is 60 thermocouples at 0.001 C precision. There is no excuse for not measuring at least 20-40 temperatures in a system where temperature and temperature gradients (i.e. heat flow) is important.

It would be trivial to look at heat flow between two reservoirs by insulating them except where they are coupled, measure the temperature across the thermal coupling point and from the temperature and the thermal conductivity calculate a heat flux.

When a specific technique is trivial in cost to implement, is well known, is known to be necessary, and has already been suggested numerous times to these researchers, why are there no publications with such equipment exhibiting positive effects?

The observation that all researchers in the cold fusion field continue to use poor instrumentation when excellent instrumentation is trivially inexpensive is to me very good evidence that they are all crackpots.

This is the data logger that I like to use.

http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/pro ... =US&lc=eng

It is cheap, easy to use and has 6 1/2 digits of precision/accuracy. What is it about good instrumentation that causes these effect to go away? I am pretty sure that I know why, but am prepared to be shown to be wrong with good data. No one who is doing this type of research is prepared to use the kind of apparatus that would deliver the kind of data that would be halfway decent.

Could someone explain why that is?

Posted by: daedalus2u | December 8, 2011 4:19 PM

Crawdaddy
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Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 5:27 pm

Post by Crawdaddy »

Skipjack wrote:
More likely Rossi has found that he has to allocate his time and limited resources to making domestic E-Cats in large quantities.
You really believe that? Come on, man! Even you have to admit that Rossi has been contradicting himself in regards to the UoB so many times now, there is no room for excuses left.

Meanwhile:
http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/01/defkal ... qus_thread

Again it seems like Defkalion will set the rules for the "independent tests".
Except in their forum they explain exactly what they mean by independent tests. As quoted by Kahuna on page 210.... Do try to keep up.

Carl White
Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:44 pm

Post by Carl White »

All this bickering is a waste of time.

If Defkalion can deliver the goods (and we will hopefully know within a couple of months), then obviously Rossi stumbled onto something despite what people think, justified or not, about his past.

If the Defkalion independent tests fizzle, then so too does this whole story, in my opinion.

Why spend effort arguing about fake degrees when all will hopefully be settled soon enough.

Frankly, at this stage I don't care too much about who did what, I just pray that this new energy source is valid. You all should too, because the world surely needs it. :!:

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