Well, all right. What's the angle? They don't seem to be applying for federal grants.MSimon wrote:Depends on who they are attempting to scam. Kleiner or the Government.
Al Gore works for Kleiner. I consider that a clue.
EEStor news
I don't think they need the money right now and I certainly do not think they want the visibility. If they deliver on their claims by year end, they will have no problem raising an unlimited amount of non-diluting funds. If they don't, I doubt the grant money would help then much.
Some here seem to dismiss EEStor as just another energy-related fraud/scam. I have been watching this story play out for some time now and I do not think there is much chance of it being an out-and-out fraud. EEStor may be self-dilusional to some extent and sucked in some big (and some not-do-big) players with them, but I do think it was all done in good faith.
That being said, I think it is totally fair to attack the science/engineering/cost feasibility of their claims, but I would not fault the secrecy of their operations. If I actually had what EEStor claims to have, I think I would have acted in a very similar fashion to forstall competition until I was ready to go to production. Except I would not have gotten in bed with a public company with all the regulations and scrutiny that brings with it.
Some here seem to dismiss EEStor as just another energy-related fraud/scam. I have been watching this story play out for some time now and I do not think there is much chance of it being an out-and-out fraud. EEStor may be self-dilusional to some extent and sucked in some big (and some not-do-big) players with them, but I do think it was all done in good faith.
That being said, I think it is totally fair to attack the science/engineering/cost feasibility of their claims, but I would not fault the secrecy of their operations. If I actually had what EEStor claims to have, I think I would have acted in a very similar fashion to forstall competition until I was ready to go to production. Except I would not have gotten in bed with a public company with all the regulations and scrutiny that brings with it.
Here is the actual audio of the conversation with Dick Weir, if you prefer that to the transcript I posted earlier. http://www.4all.com/uploads/DW_Confcall_jun2009.mp3
Again, he answers several points the doubters have brought up, such as he has already made preproduction EESUs starting June, that they are in a metal box & UL requires this is penetrated by a probe. Does anyone seriously think a preproduction EESU would not be tested for performance at voltage?
I guess that he stumbled over the high permittivity in earlier work on hard drives and whether he has the theory right is less important than having something that actually does what he claims.
Again, he answers several points the doubters have brought up, such as he has already made preproduction EESUs starting June, that they are in a metal box & UL requires this is penetrated by a probe. Does anyone seriously think a preproduction EESU would not be tested for performance at voltage?
I guess that he stumbled over the high permittivity in earlier work on hard drives and whether he has the theory right is less important than having something that actually does what he claims.
He talks about an electron cloud. If he has an electron cloud he has a conductor.
And the interview was a year ago. And he was supposed to be delivering in the fall/winter (less UL approval).
You don't need UL approval for a prototype vehicle.
You don't need UL approval to run one of these on a drag strip. Or a racetrack. Or just an oval. It doesn't have to be Le Mans.
If it works the markets are huge. If......
And the interview was a year ago. And he was supposed to be delivering in the fall/winter (less UL approval).
You don't need UL approval for a prototype vehicle.
You don't need UL approval to run one of these on a drag strip. Or a racetrack. Or just an oval. It doesn't have to be Le Mans.
If it works the markets are huge. If......
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
Actually, this interview was conducted just recently and he is referring to delivering pre-production units off his automated line to Zenn in the fourth quarter. But you are right, EEStor has missed several milestones in the past for sure.
The captial group that conducted the interview is evidently in some hot water with Canadian authorities for the leak. They were raising money for Zenn so they could increase their investment in EEStor. So EEStor ended up with the funds to complete their automated production.
I think we will know something one way or the other by the end of the year. At this point I'm leaning slightly toward this being real.
The captial group that conducted the interview is evidently in some hot water with Canadian authorities for the leak. They were raising money for Zenn so they could increase their investment in EEStor. So EEStor ended up with the funds to complete their automated production.
I think we will know something one way or the other by the end of the year. At this point I'm leaning slightly toward this being real.
Actually, this interview was conducted just recently and he is referring to delivering pre-production units off his automated line to Zenn in the fourth quarter.Kahuna wrote:Actually, this interview was conducted just recently and he is referring to delivering pre-production units off his automated line to Zenn in the fourth quarter. But you are right, EEStor has missed several milestones in the past for sure.
The captial group that conducted the interview is evidently in some hot water with Canadian authorities for the leak. They were raising money for Zenn so they could increase their investment in EEStor. So EEStor ended up with the funds to complete their automated production.
I think we will know something one way or the other by the end of the year. At this point I'm leaning slightly toward this being real.
Quite right. I misread the date.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
EEStor Summary
For those that are interested, this article does as good a job at summarizing the current EEStor status in a balanced fashion as anything I have seen:
http://www.fcnp.com/commentary/national ... logy-.html
http://www.fcnp.com/commentary/national ... logy-.html
I personally believe that part of the reason for all the secrecy is that a lot of the technology EEStor is using is basically stolen from the real inventors.
My cousin worked on the technology EEStor is using while working on his PHD along with a couple of other grad students. They didn't realize at the time that their professors were patenting their students' research under their own names. He spent several years in a legal battle back in the early to mid 90's but eventually gave up.
According to him they had made some serious progress with the super capacitors and he still expects them to show up on the market soon. He's still really bitter about getting screwed over though.
My cousin worked on the technology EEStor is using while working on his PHD along with a couple of other grad students. They didn't realize at the time that their professors were patenting their students' research under their own names. He spent several years in a legal battle back in the early to mid 90's but eventually gave up.
According to him they had made some serious progress with the super capacitors and he still expects them to show up on the market soon. He's still really bitter about getting screwed over though.
My impression of the patent system is that they basically mean nothing until challenged in court-- its not until a patent is challenged that its merits and legality are really given any serious consideration.Kahuna wrote:That makes some sense. Many think that Dick Wier does not understand the science as well as an inventor should. However, he has been granted some patents, so we will see.
In a company I previously worked for this was a huge frustration-- a much larger competitor or our patented things for which there were blatant examples of prior art; but as a much smaller company without a cadre of lawyers at our disposal we didn't have the resources to defy them and risk a drawn-out court battle with them. Actually, I have a acquaintance whose company did end up in such a situation. Last I heard (which was several years ago) he said it was doubtful they would be able to hold out until the trial ended.
EEStor Patents
Perhaps that's what Weir has in mind. If he keeps this very quiet until he is ready to start production; then perhaps he can develop deep pockets quickly and fend off the patent challenges. We shall see.
Holding a wet finger in the air to see which way the wind is blowing, I gather the current view is that the capacitor is a variant of the GBBL capacitor design, improved by chemical forming and coating the powder rather than ball milling it. Then using PET to keep out the air and allowing sintering/compression at lower temperatures that doesn't damage the coating/grain structure. In other words, not much new science but great attention to detail.
Dr. Golla (who did some of the independent tests) says that they have a small production line now. The new concern is that it may be more expensive to make than was anticipated. Nobody that really knows is talking, so this is all hearsay.
Weir is thought to be a competent scientist.
Dr. Golla (who did some of the independent tests) says that they have a small production line now. The new concern is that it may be more expensive to make than was anticipated. Nobody that really knows is talking, so this is all hearsay.
Weir is thought to be a competent scientist.
This topic is discussed in some depth here:ltgbrown wrote:Is it possible to "capture" lightening with this kind of technology?
http://theeestory.com/topics/2249?page=1#p36600
Guys, believe what you want about EEStor claims. I personally think facts are king and there are very few facts out there. However, in the latest patent, data tables are presented of measured properties of actual powder and components made from powder. The trouble with the data is that the data is inconsistent. The powder permittivity measurements are listed as the same as the permittivity measurements from the components, and the calculated capacitance from capacitance measurements is inconsistent with both the powder and component permittivities. Nothing adds up in the data.
I have abandoned the "EEStor is real" ship and have jumped on board the polywell ship instead. I like reality.
Cheers
I have abandoned the "EEStor is real" ship and have jumped on board the polywell ship instead. I like reality.
Cheers
Counting the days to commercial fusion. It is not that long now.