Sun Catalytix

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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chrismb
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Postby chrismb » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:05 am

I'm not interested in the purported mechanisms of CFC.

I am interested in understanding whether H2 can influence ozone.

I would posit that the rate of H2 production went up during the space-race, and thereafter was an ozone hole identified by a number of different parties, using different measurement techniques.

There is no point challenging me on CFCs, I have no opinion on it. I have an opinion on H2, which would be very short-lived in the atmosphere and seems to tie in nicely with;
-observations tie in with the particular period when large H2 was produced [tick]
-the fact that it would be a short-lived effect [tick], and
-that as no one currently thinks it is H2 that has any effect, so any such effects would be passed off as "an unknown mechanism" [tick]

I've enough ticks on the side of my thesis to now ask; why does anyone thing stratospheric H2 doesn't have an effect?

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:15 am

http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/02/ ... gs_pi.html

The other significant coincidence that happened about this same time was that DuPont, a major CFC manufacturer, was poised to lose its patent on one of the most widely-used CFCs. Three Canadian investors who owned 25% of the company led the campaign to ban CFCs. DuPont initially fought the CFC phase out, but the company finally acquiesced when it had secured a patent on a CFC substitute. After all, billions of dollars were at stake.

The media never seemed to report the real economic impact of the CFC ban. Replacing CFCs was not at all easy. There really are no suitable, safe, and affordable replacements for Halon fire control systems. Most propellants were not too difficult to replace (although many are flammable). One notable exception is the CFC propellant used in metered dose inhalers of asthma medication. CFCs were ideal for this application because they are both chemically and biologically inert. Eventually, the pharmaceutical industry found a solution: hydrofluoroalkanes (HFA). Of course, this new delivery method meant that previously inexpensive generic drugs (e.g., albuterol) suddenly became expensive proprietary drugs. The CFC ban effectively tripled the cost of managing asthma.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:26 am

chrismb wrote:I'm not interested in the purported mechanisms of CFC.

I am interested in understanding whether H2 can influence ozone.

I would posit that the rate of H2 production went up during the space-race, and thereafter was an ozone hole identified by a number of different parties, using different measurement techniques.

There is no point challenging me on CFCs, I have no opinion on it. I have an opinion on H2, which would be very short-lived in the atmosphere and seems to tie in nicely with;
-observations tie in with the particular period when large H2 was produced [tick]
-the fact that it would be a short-lived effect [tick], and
-that as no one currently thinks it is H2 that has any effect, so any such effects would be passed off as "an unknown mechanism" [tick]

I've enough ticks on the side of my thesis to now ask; why does anyone thing stratospheric H2 doesn't have an effect?


There is no unusual hole in the ozone.

Are you angling for a job with the WWF or Greenpeace?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:28 am

MSimon wrote:
chrismb wrote:I'm not interested in the purported mechanisms of CFC.

I am interested in understanding whether H2 can influence ozone.

I would posit that the rate of H2 production went up during the space-race, and thereafter was an ozone hole identified by a number of different parties, using different measurement techniques.

There is no point challenging me on CFCs, I have no opinion on it. I have an opinion on H2, which would be very short-lived in the atmosphere and seems to tie in nicely with;
-observations tie in with the particular period when large H2 was produced [tick]
-the fact that it would be a short-lived effect [tick], and
-that as no one currently thinks it is H2 that has any effect, so any such effects would be passed off as "an unknown mechanism" [tick]

I've enough ticks on the side of my thesis to now ask; why does anyone thing stratospheric H2 doesn't have an effect?


There is no unusual hole in the ozone.

Are you angling for a job with the WWF or Greenpeace?


OK. Ozone is caused by UV disassociation of H2O. Where did the H go?

And how about all those protons streaming in from the sun?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:34 am

Others were ambivalent about what had transpired. As put by Mostafa Tolba, the Executive Director of the UN Environment Programme, “The difficulties in negotiating the Montreal Protocol had nothing whatever to do with whether the environment was damaged or not. It was all who was going to gain an edge over who; whether DuPont would have an advantage over the European companies or not.”

The advantage went to DuPont, which soon controlled the rich replacement market for CFCs. Du Pont’s Freon Division Director, Joseph Glass, laid out DuPont’s coup succinctly: “When you have $3-billion of CFCs sold worldwide and 70% of that is about to be regulated out of existence, there is a tremendous market potential.”

DuPont is now keen to duplicate its “monumental achievement” with other regulatory coups in the richest regulatory environment of all — that of global warming. To this end, it helped found the United States Climate Action Partnership (USCAP), a coalition of blue-chip business and environmental groups, to lobby the U.S. government for legislation that will suit their agenda. From DuPont’s point of view, USCAP has been another monumental achievement. Yesterday, the U.S. House of Representatives passed a global warming bill — largely a USCAP product — that represents the largest transfer of wealth from U.S. consumers to corporate interests in history. As DuPont’s Holliday told the committee with evident satisfaction, “we are pleased to see that many of the ideas we have developed are reflected in this bill.”

Read more: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blog ... z0hUAX0W0j
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http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blog ... -game.aspx


Have you considered going to duPont and asking for grant money to promote ozone hole repair from H2 damage? There has to be money in it. Not to mention caviar, champagne, steak, and lobster. You could fly around the world in an H2 powered airplane to promote the cause. Striking fear in the great unwashed. You could lead conferences.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:37 am

Interestingly, if we create hydrogen by electrolysis of water, we will produce ozone and O2 (I guess that at least some of the Oxygen atoms will form molecules, but please correct me if I am wrong here).
What will happen with that? Assuming that you have the same amount of leakage as with hydrogen (and why wouldnt we?), the balance of hydrogen and oxygen should be well kept. Which means to me that the hydrogen will find a partner to form water with again. That is at least my assumption. Seeing that we have lots of water and very little hydrogen in the atmosphere despite a continued bombardement with hydrogen atoms from the sun, I have a feeling that I am right.

chrismb
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Postby chrismb » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:47 am

MSimon wrote:OK. Ozone is caused by UV disassociation of H2O. Where did the H go?

I don't know if that is so. I thought it was dissociation of O2. There is an equilibrium balance in the stratosphere, with the O3 having a half-life of around 20 minutes (if not influenced by chemistry).

If the half-time for ozone to combine with elemental H2 is, say, 10 minutes then we could expect a reduction of ozone of 68% (? I guess at a k=1 normal distribution of reaction time).

If H2O was dissociated then it would recombine over the same timeline to an equilibrium concentration, thus there is no net H2 being added nor ozone depleted. Extra H2 would reduce the 'spot' ozone level equilibrium.

Warthog
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Re: Hydrogen 'Fraidy Cats

Postby Warthog » Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:32 am

chrismb wrote:
Warthog wrote:I should also add that the hydrogen emitted into the atmosphere might already be having the effect I have suggested, just that currently it is masked by bigger atmospheric agents;
- ozone depletion (what fraction is due to H2 and not CFCs?) and
- acidification of sea and soil (what fraction is H2 and not CO2?).

Show me what fraction of these outcomes is H2 (or are you saying it absolutely has totally zero effect?) and then the conversation can be usefully extended.

I'm just seeking the numbers and the data. I'm not saying it's a problem, what I'm saying is that we won't get to know if it's a problem or not whilst everyone shakes their heads and says "that won't be a problem".



Show me any DATA at all that any such things are happening at all. The difference between H2 and CFC's is their residence time. Any free hydrogen around is going to rapidly make WATER (which, by the way doesn't cause "acidification of the sea and soil"). Any residual free hydrogen in the air is probably produced by hydrogen-generating bacteria, and it is only the continuous action of the bacteria that keeps it there.

Any chemist can and will tell you that the ideas you're putting out are ludicrous.

chrismb
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Re: Hydrogen 'Fraidy Cats

Postby chrismb » Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:04 pm

Warthog wrote:Any chemist can and will tell you that the ideas you're putting out are ludicrous.

Go and review the work of CalTech on this issue, then, and tell me the flaws in their published works.

Acidifcation due to protonation is well known and is a function of bio-chemistry, rather than in-organic. The soil is the main sink for elemental atmospheric hydrogen, by mechanisms not yet well understood. Unless you understand them and can explain them, then perhaps you best not make such generalisations.

MSimon
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Re: Hydrogen 'Fraidy Cats

Postby MSimon » Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:16 pm

chrismb wrote:
Warthog wrote:Any chemist can and will tell you that the ideas you're putting out are ludicrous.

Go and review the work of CalTech on this issue, then, and tell me the flaws in their published works.

Acidifcation due to protonation is well known and is a function of bio-chemistry, rather than in-organic. The soil is the main sink for elemental atmospheric hydrogen, by mechanisms not yet well understood. Unless you understand them and can explain them, then perhaps you best not make such generalisations.


You got links?

I see your point though. There is so much man doesn't know (we can start with women). At any moment he could do something through ignorance or inadvertence that could destroy the Earth. If you don't want to be stuck with the onus I'd say stay in bed with a blanket over your head (you can have bathroom breaks if they are very short - eating in bed is mandatory). You'll feel safer and the rest of us won't have to worry about the danger you pose.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Warthog
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Location: Fox Island, WA

Re: Hydrogen 'Fraidy Cats

Postby Warthog » Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:28 pm

chrismb wrote:Acidifcation due to protonation is well known and is a function of bio-chemistry, rather than in-organic. The soil is the main sink for elemental atmospheric hydrogen, by mechanisms not yet well understood. Unless you understand them and can explain them, then perhaps you best not make such generalisations.


I suggest you dig up some links, because I'm finding nothing related in various Google searches. Soil acidification is mostly caused by use of ammonia fertilizer.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:46 pm

http://www.crcv.com.au/viticare/vitinot ... cation.pdf

Acidic soil conditions (pHCa <5.5) exist in some viticultural surface soils across Australia. This acidity is either naturally occurring or may have been induced (acidification) by the addition of acidifying nitrogen fertilisers (e.g. urea, ammonium nitrate) to the soil, particularly through drip irrigation systems, or the fixation of atmospheric nitrogen by legumes.


We must do something about the nuts.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

chrismb
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Re: Hydrogen 'Fraidy Cats

Postby chrismb » Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:57 pm

Warthog wrote:I suggest you dig up some links, because I'm finding nothing related in various Google searches. Soil acidification is mostly caused by use of ammonia fertilizer.

So you're telling me if you type in "CalTech" "hydrogen" and/or "Eiler" then you get nothing!!??

gee... research skills, eh!?

Nik
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Location: UK

Wet seals for town gas

Postby Nik » Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:59 pm

Uh, a relative was involved in the conversion of town-gas piping to methane, had an interesting tale to tell...

Seems all went well at first, then methane began escaping from old pipes' joints, causing erupting pavements and exploding houses.

Difficulty was eventually traced to the water content of town gas, compared to the totally dry methane. Solution was to dampen the methane so the old joints' lagging took up moisture again, swelled and sealed.

So, although Hydrogen can iggle and wiggle through a tightly bolted joint, it could not get through wet-lagged, but otherwise sloppy joint.

Downside was the occasional eruption if the old gas pipes were frozen, and the lagging swelled, popping out of the joint...

chrismb
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Postby chrismb » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:53 pm

MSimon wrote:We must do something about the nuts.
D'you mean peanuts? Peanuts aren't nuts, but are legumes.

[...or are you talking about me and other bonkers forum posters :wink: ]


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