Just some final reminders on what Dr Nebel said.

[TallDave]

Yes, but not alone, as Dolly still "runs the show". But he is the annointed lead mouthpiece.

So, he can't make the call. We don't even know if he was asked. Another assumption.

And for the record, the Contracting Terms were not a gag, it was a <sic> "Don't Release without asking first" clause.

The effective difference being what? Either way, the Navy didn't want it released. What makes you think they changed their minds suddenly, just as your FOIA arrived?

Would it not have been much easier for EMC2 to just say it is proprietary all along, vice repeated statements of <sic>" I wish I could tell you, but THEY will not let me".

No, because they would have needed the Navy's permission first anyway, so until they had it that was moot. Also, I haven't seen a single such public statement yet, just some wishful thinking on the part of the readers. Rick specifically stated he had people at EMC2 to think of.

Nope. I think that you are seeing conspiracy in the navy seeking Dr. Nebel's help to block a nefarious FOIA

FOIAs are generally adversarial, so "nefarious" is a given. It doesn't require a conspiracy to say "Hey, this FOIA could create some problems for us, it would be nice if you could claim competitive advantage, which you are legally entitled to do, as well as having many legitimate reasons to do." No one's career would be at risk. Hell, just knowing the sponsors are sensitive to data release would be enough.

Again, you seem to think there is some sort of nefarious conspiracy to lie about the reasons for nondisclosure.

[Betruger]

Would this FOIA request and appeal's failure do anything for the odds of success for another FOIA request in a couple of years? If it doesn't, it should be dropped. There's no hurry in knowing, EMC2 is funded, the work is being done, and a couple of years in the context of a successful polywell fusion reactor is tiny.

Did anyone in the public, and I mean near enough average joes like most people here, know about DoE's influence over Polywell back in the day where Bussard & co worked to keep free of it? Filing an FOIA request at the time (I'm speculating, but it seems reasonable enough) might not have killed Polywell research, but it certainly seems it could've been enough to delay progress enough to delay the consequent release of information (e.g. a delayed peer review, or delayed WB6 breakthrough as happened at the last minute) that the FOIA is supposed to give.

[ladajo]

There is no conspiracy.
You ignore that Dr. Nebel has made multiple statements, well posted and reposted all around here and other places, where he says he would like to share, but the navy will not let him. The latest of such to surface was from Art.
He has both implied and stated the navy has refused disclosure (fair enough, he has never been clear on if he really asked or not), vice him or EMC2. Why do you put your head in the hole and ignore this?

I fully agree with you that it is completely up to EMC2 to protect their commercial interests. I support that fully.

The funding could plausibly be at risk, due to ambiguous results. But that does not seem so apparent given the Holy Crap percentage increase they got for WB8. Looks like complete new vacuum chamber, new Magrid construct, more instrumentation, new power supplies, etc.
Dr. Nebel posting or telling how many neutrons he got out of WB-7, and how many he expects out of WB-8 are not trade secrets. They are numbers. All we can tell is if he is improving, holding the line, or declining.
He has already told us that confinement in WB7 exceeded expectations, just not how much. He has not told us what his electron loss rate was. How would it really matter to him, EMC2, or the navy if he did?
Again, we would only know where he was on the project glideslope.

I am sure that WB8 will make or break the project. WB7 is done, its data is now a point of reference only. Thus the new project.
Anyone with some money to burn and desire could buy into the technology TOMORROW, and maybe even beat EMC2 to the punch of go/nogo. This type of technology is cat out of the bag already. Full funding and motivation, WB7 could be copied very quickly. and WB8 not far behind it. For all we know, some lab in China has already slapped together six MRI coils in a big box and had at it.
If it works, it will be like a zipper or shoe laces, everyone will be making it it their own color. No stopping it.
The real commercial advantage here is to get it knocked out as fast as you can, and get it on sale. Dragging your feet is only going to make it hurt more either way.
Even if WB8 does not go well enough for the navy, I would bet huge that someone else will try. Look at fusors. That dog still won't hunt, but folks are trying.
I am also sure that first plasma in WB8 is going to tell him the story. Be interesting to see if a pic is posted, trade secrets and all.

There are two key points to the whole topic;
1) There is no really good reason not to disclose the key numbers from WB7. If you release info about WB7, you can still protect the hard design changes in WB8.
2) If it is that important to keep it all secret, why not protect it the real way vice a round about way?

If you accept public dollars, you accept public scrutiny.

[KitemanSA]

then a massive funding search

I don't think it will require much searching.

I don't think it will be a massive search to find funding, but to find the BEST funding. As you point out, there are already numerous sources, if it works.

With a single source, the decision might be easy. Choosing between a dozen or more may require some real skull sweat!

[TallDave]

Your arguments seem to be built around 2 flawed assumptions:

1) Rick promised to release all information if he could. He never said that. He only said he would try to keep us informed, subject to his many other obligations, not that he would release hundreds of pages of data and analysis if someone hit the Navy with a FOIA. Art's only says he's been asked not to "discuss" something.


2) The refusal of the FOIA on "competitive advantage" grounds somehow proves the Navy has no interest in preventing the release of data and that Rick is not really interested in releasing anything. The funders seem to have had clear wishes. EMC2 may just have a sensible blanket policy of refusing FOIAs.

I am sure that WB8 will make or break the project. WB7 is done, its data is now a point of reference only. Thus the new project.
Anyone with some money to burn and desire could buy into the technology TOMORROW, and maybe even beat EMC2 to the punch of go/nogo. This type of technology is cat out of the bag already. Full funding and motivation, WB7 could be copied very quickly. and WB8 not far behind it. For all we know, some lab in China has already slapped together six MRI coils in a big box and had at it.

A lot of people seem to be assuming this would be easy. I don't think that's true. This is an esoteric branch of an esoteric field; there are very few people around with the knowledge necessary to even do meaningful analysis. What's really problematic for a VC firm, though, is that even if you find those people you would need to invest millions to even begin to understand whether there is anything worth investing in. Getting ahold of EMC2's data saves you all that work.

I'm fine with public scrutiny, but I draw the line at the impugning of people's character.

[ladajo]

"1) Rick promised to release all information if he could. "

Nope. Never said that. Rick has always been consistant with <sic> "I would tell you something but the navy doesn't want me to". Art's quote from him is another restatement of that. Nobody ever said he said he would "release all".

"2) The refusal of the FOIA on "competitive advantage" grounds somehow proves the Navy has no interest in preventing the release of data and that Rick is not really interested in releasing anything."

Nope, never said that either. I specifically said, that NAVAIR specifically told me the remaining wicket for release was EMC2. No "somehow" about it. If EMC2 passed on Proprietary, NAVAIR would have released the full boat.

Rick has NEVER said he asked the NAVY to release ANYTHING. He has only ever said that the navy does not want him to say anything.

Rick has (and had) ample opportunity to clear this up if he chooses. I am sure he is following.
Why will EMC2 not say how many neutrons they got from the runs of WB7? Why not say at what drive voltage/current? That could not realistically hurt EMC2 unless it was some extreme number. Like "none"- or "OMG! Run away!". If it was "none" then it would probably be a project killer. If it was "OMG" then you would expect more excitement in the follow on contracting. There is no need for them to discuss specific design details and tricks that they used to get the machine to run. All that has ever been said is that confinement was better than expected. WB7 worked better than expected (more or less, nuanced, etc). And, it is doing things that need to be looked at more before pressing forward (result = WB8/8.1). No one with any brain has ever said this was a Eureka! project. It as you said, is very esoteric.

Nobody ever said Polywell is going to easy to get to work. However, it IS an easy and relatively cheap project to pursue. And again, for all we know, some team in china has slapped together six MRI coils in a big box with a bank of turbopumps attached, and lit it off to see what happens.

The appeal is going to be submitted, the only way it will not, is if Dr. Nebel asks me not too.

As far character attacks, there are none. The question at hand is why would the situation be that Dr. Nebel has maintained for a long time the navy tells him not to talk about the project, whereas NAVAIR (when asked - FOIA process) said it was up to EMC2.

You have attempted to inject another layer based on assumptions of insider discussions to protect everyone from nefarious FOIA's. I do not think this layer exists. It does not make sense, no would be required. There are much easier and surer methods to contain project reports and data if so desired.

[TallDave]

Nobody ever said he said he would "release all".

Then what's your complaint? He refused your FOIA. So what? He's shared some information, just as he said he would. The funders have asked him to keep quiet on the rest.

I specifically said, that NAVAIR specifically told me the remaining wicket for release was EMC2. No "somehow" about it.

Which you are interpreting as meaning the Navy funders are fine with releasing it, and assuming Rick can make that call for EMC2 despite indications he can't. How do you explain the funders' supposed sudden change of heart, just as your FOIA arrived?

The most likely explanation is no one wants to comply with FOIA when they don't have to, and that Rick is truthfully stating the funders have made their wishes clear, which wishes we knew even before the WB-7 contract and would not even require any insider discussion to have impact on EMC2's discussion (even dogs understand you don't bite the hand that feeds you). If you think it's more likely Rick lied, okay, fine, come out and say so. It looks to me like an unwarranted attack on his character.

Rick has (and had) ample opportunity to clear this up if he chooses. I am sure he is following.

Let's not flatter ourselves, he has better things to do (I hope so, anyway).

[ladajo]

Nobody ever said he said he would "release all".

Then what's your complaint? He refused your FOIA. So what? He's shared some information, just as he said he would. The funders have asked him to keep quiet on the rest.

I do not have any issue with EMC2 claiming proprietary. Their call.
You assume the funders asked him to be quiet based on his statements saying so. The facts are: NAVAIR was ready to release pending EMC2 input. That makes it clear something doesn't add up. Both sides pointing to the other. It brings into doubt previous positions. I am not complaining, I (and others) am asking for clarification. You seem to be a lone voice. It is pretty clear in objective terms that things don't add up. There is something else to this, be it opposing positions inside the navy between NAVAIR and ONR, or be it misunderstanding or misrepresentations on EMC2's part, we do not know. Hopefully we will, and the air will be cleared.

I specifically said, that NAVAIR specifically told me the remaining wicket for release was EMC2. No "somehow" about it.

Which you are interpreting as meaning the Navy funders are fine with releasing it, and assuming Rick can make that call for EMC2 despite indications he can't. How do you explain the funders' supposed sudden change of heart, just as your FOIA arrived?

NAVAIR was prepared to release. The final step was for EMC2 to respond to NAVAIR's intention to release (ie: claim and justify proprietary). EMC2 Claimed, NAVAIR accepted. Period. If EMC2 wanted anything to come out, that was the clear and open chance to. I make no interpretations, it is all fact. How do you really know "the funders" position? That has soley been represented by Rick's statements. In fact the contracting terms do not indicate a perpetually claimed "gag". They indicate releases can be made with permission of the navy. I ask you; was the navy asked?
When presented the FOIA, the funders processed it. EMC2 moved to block it. You insist they blocked at the behest of "the funders". That is silly. There are much easier and direct ways to prevent release before it even got to EMC2.

The most likely explanation is no one wants to comply with FOIA when they don't have to, and that Rick is truthfully stating the funders have made their wishes clear, which wishes we knew even before the WB-7 contract and would not even require any insider discussion to have impact on EMC2's discussion (even dogs understand you don't bite the hand that feeds you). If you think it's more likely Rick lied, okay, fine, come out and say so. It looks to me like an unwarranted attack on his character.

I do not know if Rick "lied". Only Rick knows what really went on. As I said, he has ample ability to clarify. I also said that if he doesn't want a FOIA flown, all he has to do is ask.

Rick has (and had) ample opportunity to clear this up if he chooses. I am sure he is following.

His clarification would take but a moment of his time, and would certainly clear the air, and re-affirm EMC2's support base. And what do you think would happen if EMC2 posted the key WB7 numbers? At a minimum, it certainly would clear the air. And it certainly would not hurt competative position. Show me how it would.

Let's not flatter ourselves, he has better things to do (I hope so, anyway).

So you think that the FOIA submission and timing on the window given to EMC2 to respond by NAVAIR, coupled with activity on the website, and his limited talk with Alan Boyle, as well as follow up were indications he is not following? Don't be niave.

[TallDave]

You assume the funders asked him to be quiet based on his statements saying so.

It's not an assumption, it's based on a statement. And it's not just Rick, Bussard had the same issue. Were they both lying? If Bussard wasn't lying, why did the Navy suddenly change their minds?

Sorry, it just seems very unlikely. I think you're reading too much into NAVAIR's missives. The most likely explanation is the one we were given: the Navy boys don't want a loose PR cannon like the one that sunk the cold fusion shop, so they're telling everyone to keep quiet.

Rick's likely to be aware of the FOIA. Following the discussion closely, probably not. Better things.

If you can find a number, you might try calling EMC2 and asking them why. I don't know if you'll get a useful answer but it might clear things up a bit.

[MSimon]

Speculation:

How about if Rick wants to discourage others from seriously investigating Polywell by creating FUD so that if said others find something useful they can't hold Polywell hostage - i.e. block deployment until patents run out.

Maybe he views the situation as similar to the early days of radio. Radio didn't take off until RCA developed a patent pool.

[Betruger]

And considering the possible implications, it's a small price to pay.

[ladajo]

I have the number and it is not neccessary to call.
NAVAIR provided no "missives". They provided facts and explanations.
Maybe you should run a FOIA so you can learn what I did.

[TallDave]

A missive is just a letter (with connotations of being from an official source).

NAVAIR'S FOIA compliance people can't tell you what they don't know. They don't speak for the funders.

[ladajo]

"Missive" holds several contexts. I will not bore you with cut and pastes.

Maybe NAVAIR FOIA coordinators do not know what the funding approval authority thinks, however, they sure seemed ready to release the reports regardless. One would think that they talked to the contracting POC's and approvers, most likely when they requested copies of the reports for release. But probably you are correct, they were operating in a vacuum. Lawyers like to do that. 235 pages of vacuum.

[icarus]

I wonder if lying on a FOIA is some kind of offence, legally speaking I mean, like perjuring yourself in a deposition hearing or something?

If there have been conspiratorial talks, emails, etc between the Navy and EMC2 to issue the false information that one party was blocking the release while in fact they were the party that wanted to prevent the release, it may get sticky. TallDave seems to be suggesting some such activity has taken place for some reason, and he is the insider of some sorts after all, maybe we can take his word on this one?

It would be great if we could rely on all men of science (actually engineering and all professions) having integrity in all their dealings and not to get seduced into subterfuge or politics, as so readily happens these days. It immediately places all else they present in public under that much more skepticism, which may not be bad thing scientifically speaking.