Novel battery tech.

icarus · Post by **icarus** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:18 am

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/article ... 002e0.html
some vital stats ...

Inside Ceramatec's wonder battery is a chunk of solid sodium metal mated to a sulphur compound by an extraordinary, paper-thin ceramic membrane. The membrane conducts ions -- electrically charged particles -- back and forth to generate a current. The company calculates that the battery will cram 20 to 40 kilowatt hours of energy into a package about the size of a refrigerator, and operate below 90 degrees C.

...

Ceramatec says its new generation of battery would deliver a continuous flow of 5 kilowatts of electricity over four hours, with 3,650 daily discharge/recharge cycles over 10 years. With the batteries expected to sell in the neighborhood of $2,000, that translates to less than 3 cents per kilowatt hour over the battery's life. Conventional power from the grid typically costs in the neighborhood of 8 cents per kilowatt hour.

IntLibber · Post by **IntLibber** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:45 am

The battery isn't generating the power, so the 3 cents per kwh gets tacked on to whatever you pay at the plug for electricity.

KitemanSA · Post by **KitemanSA** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:49 am

If daily off-peak power costs more than 3 cents per kilowatt hour LESS than daily PEAK power, this thing would pay for itself.

D Tibbets · Post by **D Tibbets** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:58 pm

I was unaware how various batteries compared in cost per KWH. This site describes some.

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-51.htm

Using their data, a $0.03 per KWH battery would be a a huge improvement. Weight and volume and disposal conciderations would also contribute to the final cost. It could not only help cars, but also photovotaic/ wind generated electricity storage. I wonder how the cost would compare to hydroelectric, hot sodium, or underground pressure storage schemes.

Dan Tibbets

JohnP · Post by **JohnP** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:01 pm

What's the difference between peak demand and off-peak? If the whole point of this thing is to straddle the economic difference between the two, when you have a lot of customers use it, the difference shrinks.

BenTC · Post by **BenTC** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:43 pm

JohnP wrote:What's the difference between peak demand and off-peak? If the whole point of this thing is to straddle the economic difference between the two, when you have a lot of customers use it, the difference shrinks.

The power utility would still be operating with greater less-expensive base load generators.

KitemanSA · Post by **KitemanSA** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:39 am

JohnP wrote:What's the difference between peak demand and off-peak? If the whole point of this thing is to straddle the economic difference between the two, when you have a lot of customers use it, the difference shrinks.

This is by recollection but IIRC the cost of summer peak power in California (not subsidized residential) was about $0.50/kWh back maybe 5 years ago (Home Power Magazine). Summer off peak was more like $0.22. HOWEVER, if this ever hits the market in a big way, that will flatten out FAST.

OK, so I just used the internet (what a concept) and found that the purest TOU (time of use) rates for commecial power from PG&E during the summer were $0.31 and $0.09. Looks like the costs have gone down. None-the-less, it also looks like there is a good market for these things. Commercial power at ~0.12/kWh (9+3) in CA is quite good.

IntLibber · Post by **IntLibber** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:10 am

KitemanSA wrote:If daily off-peak power costs more than 3 cents per kilowatt hour LESS than daily PEAK power, this thing would pay for itself.

Well, if thats your business plan, you might as go with the cheapest materials around and build a bank of lead acid batteries, charge them up off peak and discharge them back during peak.

KitemanSA · Post by **KitemanSA** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:01 am

IntLibber wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:If daily off-peak power costs more than 3 cents per kilowatt hour LESS than daily PEAK power, this thing would pay for itself.
Well, if thats your business plan, you might as go with the cheapest materials around and build a bank of lead acid batteries, charge them up off peak and discharge them back during peak.

Except that LA batteries would add MUCH more than 3 cents per kWh. From the link above, the LA battery shown adds about $1.00/kWh. So in that case, $1.09 peak power is NOT a good deal. (Keep up, please

)

Aeronaut · Post by **Aeronaut** » Sun May 02, 2010 1:53 pm

I just googled ceramatec battery and then coorstec battery and only found "one of these days" references. Worse yet, Popular Mechanics is writing about it, which tells me that they don't expect it to change the status quo any time soon.

WizWom · Post by **WizWom** » Mon May 31, 2010 12:36 am

having actually explored Dual-layer capacitor (which mix a battery layer and a capacitor) and pure capacitor and battery performance and energy densities for years (related to a hobby of mine), let me give you some real numbers for power storage systems. I didn't cost these out, since I did not have any real application waiting (although, when i start building ADEPs, I will want a significant off-grid power, to startup)

Code: Select all

Mfr	Part	Capacitance	Volume (cc)	Mass (g)	charge (Q)	energy (J)	Voltage	DensityV	DensityM
maxwell	bcap3000 ("dual layer" ceramic)	3000	1581.622506	510	8100	10935	2.7	6.91378629	21.44117647
maxwell	PC10	10	4.066752	6.3	25	31.25	2.5	7.684264986	4.96031746
maxwell	bmod00653 p1256	63	85820.25	59500	7875	492187.5	125	5.735097486	8.272058824
vishay	202D159X0006A5 (tantalum)	0.015	37.65042	125	0.06	0.12	4	0.003187215	0.00096
General Atomics	32765 (oil electrolytic)	0.000289931	89670.01421	1.80E+05	6.96E+00	8.35E+04	2.40E+04	0.931192001	0.463888889
Tenergy	NiMH battery	510.2040816	163.53	517	4.29E+03	18000	8.4	110.0715465	34.81624758
LG Chem	ICR18650  B3 Li Ion Battery	1367.421476	17.10958051	48	5.06E+03	9360	3.7	547.0619221	195
Vina Tech	VER 2R3 607 MG	600	38.48451001	38.48451001	1620	2187	2.7	56.82805886	56.82805886

I'm not sure that chart is clear. Basically, LiIon leads the pack, hands down, but as a battery, it needs fairly strict power control. General Atomic's old Oil Electrolytic are the only one rated for high power, but are about 500 times less dense for energy storage than LiIon. Vina Tech's new DLC surpasses NiMH for energy storage, and is only 3 times less dense than LiIon.

Robthebob · Post by **Robthebob** » Mon May 31, 2010 12:45 am

interesting, can they make this battery fit in a car? If so, how long can a car operate with this battery before it has to recharge? How long does it take to fully recharge?

I'm more interested in that actually.

Stoney3K · Post by **Stoney3K** » Mon May 31, 2010 12:58 pm

I'd be more interested in the safety aspects of this thing.

You are talking about a tremendous energy density, about the same size of a small fuel tank, and you don't want to witness any catastrophic failures first-hand.

So I wonder how this thing would react when faced with overcurrent, short-circuit, and overvoltage situations.

WizWom · Post by **WizWom** » Mon May 31, 2010 3:02 pm

Robthebob wrote:interesting, can they make this battery fit in a car? If so, how long can a car operate with this battery before it has to recharge? How long does it take to fully recharge?

I'm more interested in that actually.

Any battery or capacitor technology is fully scalable - and scaling up is easier than down. But you can scale it from a little sliver on an IC to a package meters on a side and capable of storing gigawatthours.

kunkmiester · Post by **kunkmiester** » Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:40 am

gigawatthours

Hate to resurrect, but this thread now needs a picture of Doc Brown.