North Korean Fusion

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:08 pm

gave indications of less than 1 KTon for first test and a couple of KTon for second test

Well piling up two thousand tons of TNT and exploding them all at once is not that easy either. So I would assume that they built at least a low yield nuclear explosive device. Of course nobody really knows what the NKs have or dont have. If they dont have any nuclear bombs though, why is everybody freaking out about them.

Helius
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Location: Syracuse, New York

Sorry, no Tritium today.

Postby Helius » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:57 pm

I thought the low yield was because they didn't bother to load the Tritium.

Building and exploding the Pt core is the hard part and hey proved out that part. Why load the booster and destroy a perfectly good mountain?

Giorgio
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Location: China, Italy

Re: Sorry, no Tritium today.

Postby Giorgio » Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:18 pm

Helius wrote:I thought the low yield was because they didn't bother to load the Tritium.

Building and exploding the Pt core is the hard part and hey proved out that part. Why load the booster and destroy a perfectly good mountain?


You are thinking that they was testing a thermonuclear bomb which IMHO is an order of magnitude more complex to build than a standad fission device.

Giorgio
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Location: China, Italy

Postby Giorgio » Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:26 pm

Skipjack wrote:
gave indications of less than 1 KTon for first test and a couple of KTon for second test

Well piling up two thousand tons of TNT and exploding them all at once is not that easy either. So I would assume that they built at least a low yield nuclear explosive device. Of course nobody really knows what the NKs have or dont have. If they dont have any nuclear bombs though, why is everybody freaking out about them.


I agree that exploding with a correct timing the whole 2K tons is not an easy task, but I wonder how much more easy it is to do that in respect of actually buillding a fission device.

As on why everyone is freaking at them, that's a good question, even if I am still trying to understand why everyone was freaking out at Saddam Hussein....

bcglorf
Posts: 436
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:58 pm

Really?

Postby bcglorf » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:15 pm

Giorgio wrote:
Skipjack wrote:
gave indications of less than 1 KTon for first test and a couple of KTon for second test

Well piling up two thousand tons of TNT and exploding them all at once is not that easy either. So I would assume that they built at least a low yield nuclear explosive device. Of course nobody really knows what the NKs have or dont have. If they dont have any nuclear bombs though, why is everybody freaking out about them.


I agree that exploding with a correct timing the whole 2K tons is not an easy task, but I wonder how much more easy it is to do that in respect of actually buillding a fission device.

As on why everyone is freaking at them, that's a good question, even if I am still trying to understand why everyone was freaking out at Saddam Hussein....


I can't figure out why everyone WASN'T freaking out at Saddam much, much sooner.
1.Genocide of better than a quarter million of his own people.
2.The use chemical weapons both to commit genocide, and wage war on his neighbor.
3.Harboring, protecting and employing terrorists.
4.Annexing another sovereign UN member state.
5.Pursuit and development of a nuclear weapons program at least up until Israel bombed it.

Saddam was one of the absolute worst and most violent tyrants our world had seen since Hitler and Stalin.

Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Postby Skipjack » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:20 pm

Pol Pot, Suslov, Khomeini...
Lets not forget about those...

Giorgio
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Location: China, Italy

Re: Really?

Postby Giorgio » Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:47 pm

bcglorf wrote:
Giorgio wrote:
Skipjack wrote:
gave indications of less than 1 KTon for first test and a couple of KTon for second test

Well piling up two thousand tons of TNT and exploding them all at once is not that easy either. So I would assume that they built at least a low yield nuclear explosive device. Of course nobody really knows what the NKs have or dont have. If they dont have any nuclear bombs though, why is everybody freaking out about them.


I agree that exploding with a correct timing the whole 2K tons is not an easy task, but I wonder how much more easy it is to do that in respect of actually buillding a fission device.

As on why everyone is freaking at them, that's a good question, even if I am still trying to understand why everyone was freaking out at Saddam Hussein....


I can't figure out why everyone WASN'T freaking out at Saddam much, much sooner.
1.Genocide of better than a quarter million of his own people.
2.The use chemical weapons both to commit genocide, and wage war on his neighbor.
3.Harboring, protecting and employing terrorists.
4.Annexing another sovereign UN member state.
5.Pursuit and development of a nuclear weapons program at least up until Israel bombed it.

Saddam was one of the absolute worst and most violent tyrants our world had seen since Hitler and Stalin.


You missed my logic.
I am not stating that he should not have been overthrown, I am stating that everyone was screaming that he had nukes and an incredible arsenal of mass destruction weapons, while in effect he was simply a crazy guy bluffing about those weapons.
And if he did not have these weapons with all the billions that oil sales was bringing to him, how could it be possible for a nation like NK with no cash at all to have them?


We all live better lifes with Saddam Hussein off this world and I will not cry if Kim Jong Il will join him, but we are not discussing politics here, we are discussing about possibility that NK has fission weapons or not.

Helius
Posts: 465
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:48 pm
Location: Syracuse, New York

Re: Sorry, no Tritium today.

Postby Helius » Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:34 am

Giorgio wrote:
Helius wrote:I thought the low yield was because they didn't bother to load the Tritium.

Building and exploding the Pt core is the hard part and hey proved out that part. Why load the booster and destroy a perfectly good mountain?


You are thinking that they was testing a thermonuclear bomb which IMHO is an order of magnitude more complex to build than a standad fission device.


No. A tritium boosted fission bomb isn't much added complexity to a well designed Plutonium core. I believe no-one would bother designing a weapon without some neutrons generated from fusion to enhance the weapon's power to weight ratio. We're still talking technology much less advanced than the Teller-Elam Weapon or the Sakarov version of it.

KitemanSA
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Location: OlyPen WA

Postby KitemanSA » Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:38 am

Skipjack wrote: Well piling up two thousand tons of TNT and exploding them all at once is not that easy either. So I would assume that they built at least a low yield nuclear explosive device. Of course nobody really knows what the NKs have or dont have. If they dont have any nuclear bombs though, why is everybody freaking out about them.
Given a reasonable size hole in the ground, creating a 2kton explosion is fairly easy. First, fill with Ammonium Nitrate (how much "fertelizer" didn't make it to the fields?). Second, put in ~7000 barrels of diesel. Third, drop in a stick (ok, maybe a brace of sticks) of TNT with a blasting cap. Fourth, push the plunger and AWAYYY you go!

Giorgio
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Location: China, Italy

Postby Giorgio » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:20 am

One of the few industrial complex in North Korea is a 900.000 Tons Nitrogen fertilizer complex.

Should be this one:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=39.6 ... 6&t=h&z=16

bcglorf
Posts: 436
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:58 pm

Re: Really?

Postby bcglorf » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:44 pm

Giorgio wrote:
bcglorf wrote:
Giorgio wrote:
Skipjack wrote:
gave indications of less than 1 KTon for first test and a couple of KTon for second test

Well piling up two thousand tons of TNT and exploding them all at once is not that easy either. So I would assume that they built at least a low yield nuclear explosive device. Of course nobody really knows what the NKs have or dont have. If they dont have any nuclear bombs though, why is everybody freaking out about them.


I agree that exploding with a correct timing the whole 2K tons is not an easy task, but I wonder how much more easy it is to do that in respect of actually buillding a fission device.

As on why everyone is freaking at them, that's a good question, even if I am still trying to understand why everyone was freaking out at Saddam Hussein....


I can't figure out why everyone WASN'T freaking out at Saddam much, much sooner.
1.Genocide of better than a quarter million of his own people.
2.The use chemical weapons both to commit genocide, and wage war on his neighbor.
3.Harboring, protecting and employing terrorists.
4.Annexing another sovereign UN member state.
5.Pursuit and development of a nuclear weapons program at least up until Israel bombed it.

Saddam was one of the absolute worst and most violent tyrants our world had seen since Hitler and Stalin.


You missed my logic.
I am not stating that he should not have been overthrown, I am stating that everyone was screaming that he had nukes and an incredible arsenal of mass destruction weapons, while in effect he was simply a crazy guy bluffing about those weapons.
And if he did not have these weapons with all the billions that oil sales was bringing to him, how could it be possible for a nation like NK with no cash at all to have them?


We all live better lifes with Saddam Hussein off this world and I will not cry if Kim Jong Il will join him, but we are not discussing politics here, we are discussing about possibility that NK has fission weapons or not.


Without the first Gulf War and Israel's bombing of the reactor Saddam got from France, Saddam would have had nuclear weapons by 2003. North Korea easily has the capacity to develop fission weapons. Being able to simply pass on feeding your population makes some room in the budget. I don't think there can be much question that North Korea has the resources needed, and they certainly have had the will to man their military at the cost of absolutely everything else, save the secret police.

Tom Ligon
Posts: 1870
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Location: Northern Virginia
Contact:

Postby Tom Ligon » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:38 pm

If some upstart third world country simply claimed to have nuclear weapons out of the blue, I would suspect a bluff. If they made a big underground rumble and I saw no evidence of a nuclear operation and every evidence of fuel oil and fertilizer, I might dismiss it as saber-rattling.

But if I had clear evidence (say, for example, they had allowed inspectors on-site for a while at a plutonium-production reactor) that they actually had the capacity to crank out plutonium, and furthermore knew that they valued the lives of their people so little that they wouldn't mind having people handle plutonium with minimal equipment, I would not doubt for a minute that they could at least build a "gun-type" fission explosive. The jump from some tens of kg of plutonium to a bomb is a high-school-science no-brainer. They might not be refined enough to make a particularly efficient one, but they ought to be able to match the Hiroshima weapon.

Now let's say that country has a certifiably-nuts and very belligerent leader who does things like building and launching missiles capable of reaching a quarter the way around the globe, who torpedos a ship of a neighboring country, and who threatens war several times a week, I would ... ah ... be concerned.

D Tibbets
Posts: 2775
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:52 am

Re: Really?

Postby D Tibbets » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:44 pm

Giorgio wrote:
bcglorf wrote:
Giorgio wrote:
Skipjack wrote:
gave indications of less than 1 KTon for first test and a couple of KTon for second test

Well piling up two thousand tons of TNT and exploding them all at once is not that easy either. So I would assume that they built at least a low yield nuclear explosive device. Of course nobody really knows what the NKs have or dont have. If they dont have any nuclear bombs though, why is everybody freaking out about them.


I agree that exploding with a correct timing the whole 2K tons is not an easy task, but I wonder how much more easy it is to do that in respect of actually buillding a fission device.

As on why everyone is freaking at them, that's a good question, even if I am still trying to understand why everyone was freaking out at Saddam Hussein....


I can't figure out why everyone WASN'T freaking out at Saddam much, much sooner.
1.Genocide of better than a quarter million of his own people.
2.The use chemical weapons both to commit genocide, and wage war on his neighbor.
3.Harboring, protecting and employing terrorists.
4.Annexing another sovereign UN member state.
5.Pursuit and development of a nuclear weapons program at least up until Israel bombed it.

Saddam was one of the absolute worst and most violent tyrants our world had seen since Hitler and Stalin.


You missed my logic.
I am not stating that he should not have been overthrown, I am stating that everyone was screaming that he had nukes and an incredible arsenal of mass destruction weapons, while in effect he was simply a crazy guy bluffing about those weapons.
And if he did not have these weapons with all the billions that oil sales was bringing to him, how could it be possible for a nation like NK with no cash at all to have them?


We all live better lifes with Saddam Hussein off this world and I will not cry if Kim Jong Il will join him, but we are not discussing politics here, we are discussing about possibility that NK has fission weapons or not.



I don't know how difficult it is to blow up a pile of TNT, so long as you are not concerned about close symetrical tolorances that are needed for an implosion nuclear device.

From my limited understanding , the first NK test was probably an atom bomb that fizzled. If there is too much Pu240 (comes from having the fuel rods in the reactor too long) in your bomb, it fissions too fast and the bomb blows itself apart before a desired amount of the fissle material can fission. Perhaps only 0.5-1% of the Pu fissioned, as opposed to 30-40% in a 'good' bomb and perhaps 60-80% in advanced bombs(?). This is called a fizzle, I beleive. Less than optimal implosion might also have been a factor. With this you would only blow up a small city, instead of a large city. Still plenty of fall out though.

As far as NK being able to build a bomb, most of the work was done through an imported nuclear reactor. All they had to do was extract the Plutonium and work on the explosives. And again, imported materials and devices (fast switches) may have been aviable.

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

Giorgio
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Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:15 pm
Location: China, Italy

Postby Giorgio » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:12 pm

@Tom Ligon

Evidence is exactly what we are lacking in this case. Starting from the lack of any radiation after both tests (but we can find an explanations also for this if we want).
Than if we decide as humanity to go there and remove a psycho leader I can agree, but let do it for this reason, not because we are scared.




@ D Tibbets

I Agree with you and I also believe that they have conducted a nuclear test trying to fission nuclear material without decent results.

What I am sceptic about is for them to have a Nuclear device, meaning a nuclear Bomb that can be installed into (and launched with) a rocket.

pfrit
Posts: 256
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:04 pm

Postby pfrit » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:18 pm

Building a fussion bomb really is not that tricky. The hard part is making one that you can deliver to target that will explode reliably. That is very much harder. I am inclined to beleive that NK cannot do this at this point. They would need to have tested a design to be able to deploy it. They haven't had a really succesful test and they have a very limited amount of fissile material to play with.
What is the difference between ignorance and apathy? I don't know and I don't care.


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