North Korean Fusion

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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Giorgio
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Postby Giorgio » Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:41 am

TallDave wrote:
The problem is that in their eyes our politicians behaved (in removing Saddam) exactly like Saddam was behaving with his people, and for this we are hated in the same way they hated Saddam.


Shrug. They're wrong. Part of the reason they live in such squalor is they don't think very well. Liberal democracy is a learning process, both economically and politically, which they have been deprived. ........
If they think that was "acting like Saddam..."


I never said that they are right.
I am just pointing to what the majority of the people I met believe.
And like I wrote before, we can discuss why they believe this, but that's not the main issue for me.




TallDave wrote:As Dogbert says, the most powerful force in the universe is Ignorance, followed by Apathy.


He forgot religion. When you are raised in ignorance and kept in ignorance by your religious class is difficult to understand how the world should really be.
Freedom and religion are two concepts that cannot coexist in power.
We have seen this in our past history and we are seeing this in ME.
We should have helped them to create a secularist environment before giving them freedom to play with.
Problem is that we are the first to be governed by religious influence, so we hardly can be an example for anyone.




TallDave wrote:
to the control of ME resources that is the reason of all the mess in the ME is right now. I hope we can all agree on this point.


The resources are only important because the region is so backwards that they're the only source of wealth. Did you know the U.S. produces more oil than Iran, Iraq and Kuwait combined? Most of our real wealth lies in the intangible assets of the society we've built.


That's a very naif way to see the main issue.
What you say in regard to production of OIL is true, but you are forgetting that US consumes THREE times the amount of OIL it produces, meaning they need to import 66% of their need.

And while is true that a good part of US wealth is in intangible assets, US is still the first country in the world for manufacturing of goods, and you need oil for that. You cannot feed US power plants furnaces with Intangible assets (even if that might not be such a bad idea, but for other reasons....)

GIThruster
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Postby GIThruster » Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:08 am

"Freedom and religion are two concepts that cannot coexist in power."

Nonsense.

The dictates of history are clear that Christianity creates freedom. Any other reading of our past is hopelessly flawed.

All religions are NOT the same. Fact is, they're all different.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Giorgio
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Re: Catering Policy

Postby Giorgio » Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:08 am

bcglorf wrote:I limited my analisys to the start of the industrialized era to make it short. I agree that we can go back to date some issues up to a couple of milleniums...

Let me cut you off there and say that I believe you also limited your analysis because it is inconvenient to your previously stated conclusion:
I believe more that it has been and it still is European and American presence in the middle East that has screwed up and is still screwing up the ME from 1800 to our days.
Ignoring the entirety of what happened prior to 1800 is awfully convenient, you get to blame the legacy of everything that went before on the new guy. Like the British Empire from 1800 onwards, or America in Iraq after 2003.


Care to point what are the issues that happened before 1800 that you believe had such a big influence in today ME?
In my analisys the biggest destabilization issue in ME area has been oil money (apart the suez canal control in Egypt). What's your view?



bcglorf wrote:I was in Cairo when 11 September happened and I saw the people spend the night making feast and distributing candies on the roads.

I suppose they were celebrating the revenge against the Americans for their future removal of Saddam?


Do you really think that america was not hated before Saddam hussein?
You should realize that US have not had a good reputation in ME since the 60's, when they took over role of ME dominant power from the British.



bcglorf wrote:The problem with a great many reasons people hate America over is concisely answered by TallDave: "They're wrong."


Again, I never stated that they are right. I know very well that they are wrong with most of their belief, but this does not change the reality that they hate US and most of Europe.


bcglorf wrote:The dictators and royalty managing the propaganda in many ME countries may have done a great job telling their people why to hate America, but if most of it is falsehoods, half-truths and lies then American foreign policy isn't the place to look to for the solution now is it?


No? than where should we look?
Who is keeping those dictators, those royals and those cleric in power by purchasing their oil?

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:56 am

Yeah. To be sure. They hate America.

And when asked where they would like to go if they could leave the current hell hole where they currently reside, the overwhelming choice of destination is (wait for it) the USA. This is especially true of Palestinians.

Now compare this to first second and third generation German Jews living elsewhere. None of them want to return to Germany.

Or compare it to the WW2 Jews. Germany was not (to say the least) an attractive destination.

What can we glean from this: the people of the ME are for reasons of culture or otherwise certifiably nuts.

i.e. "We hate America. Where is my Green Card?"

About half the smoke shops in my town are run by Palestinians. I'm teaching them how to be American - Leave your grudges behind. At first when I would visit their establishments there was tension in the air. Now a days I'm welcomed as a valued customer. Funny that.

It takes about 3 or 4 generations to fully attenuate the old culture. Patience grasshopper.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:57 am

Who is keeping those dictators, those royals and those cleric in power by purchasing their oil?


The Democrats?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Giorgio
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Postby Giorgio » Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:20 pm

MSimon wrote:Yeah. To be sure. They hate America.

And when asked where they would like to go if they could leave the current hell hole where they currently reside, the overwhelming choice of destination is (wait for it) the USA. This is especially true of Palestinians.

Now compare this to first second and third generation German Jews living elsewhere. None of them want to return to Germany.

Or compare it to the WW2 Jews. Germany was not (to say the least) an attractive destination.

What can we glean from this: the people of the ME are for reasons of culture or otherwise certifiably nuts.

i.e. "We hate America. Where is my Green Card?"

About half the smoke shops in my town are run by Palestinians. I'm teaching them how to be American - Leave your grudges behind. At first when I would visit their establishments there was tension in the air. Now a days I'm welcomed as a valued customer. Funny that.

It takes about 3 or 4 generations to fully attenuate the old culture. Patience grasshopper.


All what you say is true and is under the eyes of everyone.
The issue is that they are brainwashed to think something as a group but still they try to get the best for them as individuals.

One of the most difficult thing to understand (for free minded people like us) is that in those religious enviroments people are always thorn apart between freedom of expressing their mind and getting along the traditions that they have been teached since early life.
Not following religious rules or traditions is not allowed in those countries.
My I remember that Islam means "Submission", and this way of life is enforced in a strict way all over ME (and not only in Iran).

To change it will indeed take 3-4 generation, but from the moment that they will break free from their religious chains.

Giorgio
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Postby Giorgio » Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:33 pm

MSimon wrote:
Who is keeping those dictators, those royals and those cleric in power by purchasing their oil?


The Democrats?


Funny joke.

Oh, wait.... was it a joke right?

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:38 pm

You should realize that US have not had a good reputation in ME since the 60's, when they took over role of ME dominant power from the British.


And yet their wealth is dependent on freedom of the seas. Mostly insured by the US Navy.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

TallDave
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Postby TallDave » Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:39 pm

I'd recommend picking up The Rational Optimist and The Strong Horse.

The first explains why the West became rich. The second explains why the Mideast remains largely poor and violent. Where we've built high-trust societies based on consensual transactions, they remain mired in a low-trust environment in which force is usually the ultimate arbiter.

The region has millennia of internal dysfunction to overcome. While the money we've paid for oil has undeniably propped up horrible gov'ts, to reduce the source of problems to "American/European meddling" is far too Westocentric thinking. Many of their conflicts predate the founding of the United States, many others are the detritus of the Ottoman Empire.

Lots of conflicts had little to with outsiders: Saddam Hussein's 1990 invasion of Kuwait, Syrian occupation of Lebanon (1990-2005), the civil wars in North Yemen (1962-1970) and Lebanon (1975-1990), the massacres of Saddam Hussein against the Iraqi Shiites and Kurds in 1991, and the massacres of Hafez Assad against the Syrians of Hama in 1982.
Last edited by TallDave on Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
n*kBolt*Te = B**2/(2*mu0) and B^.25 loss scaling? Or not so much? Hopefully we'll know soon...

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:43 pm

Giorgio,

No joke.

"Drill, baby drill" is considered a Right/Republican mantra.

Drilling moratoriums and "drilling for oil is off limits here" is what the Democrats do.

The strangulation of American oil production is one of the things that keeps the price of oil high. Even if OPEC curtailed production (to match increased American production) to maintain prices it would mean less money going to the ME.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Giorgio
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Postby Giorgio » Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:53 pm

MSimon wrote:Giorgio,

No joke.

"Drill, baby drill" is considered a Right/Republican mantra.

Drilling moratoriums and "drilling for oil is off limits here" is what the Democrats do.

The strangulation of American oil production is one of the things that keeps the price of oil high. Even if OPEC curtailed production (to match increased American production) to maintain prices it would mean less money going to the ME.


You can drill all you want, but the oil that US (and the rest of industrial nations) need cannot come just from local drilling. Import is a necessity and will always be until we have a different source of power.

This IMHO is indipendent from Democratic or Repubblican control of the US.

Giorgio
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Postby Giorgio » Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:08 pm

TallDave wrote:The region has millennia of internal dysfunction to overcome. While the money we've paid for oil has undeniably propped up horrible gov'ts, to reduce the source of problems to "American/European meddling" is far too Westocentric thinking. Many of their conflicts predate the founding of the United States, many others are the detritus of the Ottoman Empire.


It's far from my mind the idea that all the source of ME problems has been "American/European meddling". It couldn't be more wrong.
Like I stated before, is simply our need for resources that made the situation worst.

Should not be for the oil we need to feed our progress we will probably ignore their conflicts and they will probably ignore us.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:41 pm

You can drill all you want, but the oil that US (and the rest of industrial nations) need cannot come just from local drilling.


Do you realize that Alaska has vast resources of untapped oil?

Do you know how much of America is off limits to exploration and production? Something on the order of 30% to 50%. Do you realize that oil shale production is off limits?

To strangle oil producers all the US needs to do is increase production by 30% or so. That is doable. If our government allowed us to get at the oil.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Giorgio
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Postby Giorgio » Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:41 pm

Oil shale can make the difference for US, but for what I remember it was not economic under 70 US$/barrel (or around that amount), so it was more an economic issue there.


Us Oil reserve on the other hand are not enough.

Theoretical offshore oil recoverable in all US is 80 bbl.
Theoretical onshore oil recoverable in all US is 40 bbl.
US consumption is 8,2 bbl/year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserv ... ted_States

Even if they discover all this theoretical oil and they are able to economically recover all the oil you have around 10 years worth of oil reserves in US.

And this, again, without even considering the higher extraction costs and the oil quality.


Iraq has the world second largest PROVEN reserve, equal to 120 bbl of high quality and extremely cheap to produce oil.
Iraq has theoretical recoverable oil of 500 bbl!
That's 60 years worth of US consumption.

Are you still convinced that OIL is not the reason why we are in ME?

Betruger
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Postby Betruger » Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:28 pm



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