Tokamaks now proven SUCCESSFUL!

[chrismb]

6 = Eureka! Nut cracked for confinement
7/7.1 = Yup, 6 was right, and darn those nubs...

There is no evidence we know of to support such claims.

The whole point of this thread was to take a laugh at the idea that 'no news means it is working'.

The only results claimed are some neutron counts. If you are not a studier of fusion history then you should start now as you'll find out that the cleverest men on earth have made fools of themselves by claiming nonsense over neutron counts alone.

The whole point of 8 was to actually come up with some real diagnostic data [for a change!].

[jsbiff]

I am thinking that if they get funding for 8.1 (PB&J) that means that they are entering the no kill zone.

OK, I gotta ask - what does PB&J stand for? Since the 8.1 "option", to my understanding is to test the Proton-Boron-11 option, I guess. . .

Proton, Boron, and Joules?

[KitemanSA]

I am thinking that if they get funding for 8.1 (PB&J) that means that they are entering the no kill zone.

OK, I gotta ask - what does PB&J stand for? Since the 8.1 "option", to my understanding is to test the Proton-Boron-11 option, I guess. . .

Proton, Boron, and Joules?

Yup. You can thank MSimon for that one.

[KitemanSA]

6 = Eureka! Nut cracked for confinement
7/7.1 = Yup, 6 was right, and darn those nubs...

There is no evidence we know of to support such claims.

There is evidence, you just refuse to accept it. I said EVIDENCE, not proof.

[ladajo]

6 = Eureka! Nut cracked for confinement
7/7.1 = Yup, 6 was right, and darn those nubs...

There is no evidence we know of to support such claims.

The whole point of this thread was to take a laugh at the idea that 'no news means it is working'.

The only results claimed are some neutron counts. If you are not a studier of fusion history then you should start now as you'll find out that the cleverest men on earth have made fools of themselves by claiming nonsense over neutron counts alone.

The whole point of 8 was to actually come up with some real diagnostic data [for a change!].

Chris:
The whole point of 7/7.1 was validation of 6's results. As stated in the contract. EMC2 felt confident enough about the end state, they posted it on the EMC2 webpage. Then Nebel went on to say directly that confinement was proved as well.
The contract for 8 was to improve diagnostics (again) yes, but primarily to test for scaling by jacking B-Field by a factor of 10.
You know all this.

[KitemanSA]

They have not exercised the option, it is dependant on 8.0 results.

If I said something to imply they had exercised the option, I am sorry because I didn't intend to convey that meaning.

We should see an award notice of some sort for exercising of the option, not to mention something (albiet delayed) at recovery.gov. The other potentially more faster option, will be the mandated weekly/monthly DOD reporting to OMB.

Are you familiar enough with the reporting requirements to be sure that they would have to publish the award of the option? I am not sure they have to. It has already been posted in FBO and the Sole sourse justification alread includes the added amount.

I am thinking that if they get funding for 8.1 (PB&J) that means that they are entering the no kill zone. By definition, it would mean that the DD theory proved out to expectations, and it is viable to burn off another $4mil to go for PB&J validation.

On odd days, I agree with that sentiment, on evens not so much. I just don't know how "tight" they will want to keep this.

At the end of 8.0 there should be enough evidence that it is a project kill or no kill event. Either will be evident given what happens to EMC2. The tenant all along has been meet the milestone or go home. The next major milestone after 8.0/8.1 is Net Power.

Unless, like tokamak, the results are nuanced and another larger scale unit is needed. And isn't THAT a dreadful thought!

6 = Eureka! Nut cracked for confinement
7 = Yup, 6 did what it said, but we need better data to be sure it is what Dr. B THOUGHT it was, and darn those nubs...
7.1 = Successful, better design info for 8.
8.0 = The $8 mil question, "Should DD scale?"
8.1 = The $4 mil question, "Since DD should scale well, will PB&J scale?"

My slightly revised view of the sequence!

[D Tibbets]

Sigh, again with the 'few neutrons' being the only evidence/ data in the Polywell realm.
The neutrons counts published, are not very important at all, except for the sexiness of it and possibly as a conformation/ crosscheck on all the other parameters involved. Things like Wiffleball formation, confinement times, density limits, other plasma behaviors, etc. I am sure EMC2 and reviewers are in possession of this information. In our world, this information does not exist (except for some hints), but to extrapolate that such applies to all is presumptuous. There are a lot of things that work without widespread knowledge or understandings of the system.

It is legitimate to challenge something and demand proof before you reach a decision, but that is irrelevant to the existence of something (or for that matter the non existence of something). The exception might be if you are God, or at least a believer in the extreme Copenhagen School of quantum mechanics that believes the Moon doesn't exist unless you can see (measure) it.

Dan Tibbets

[ladajo]

Are you familiar enough with the reporting requirements to be sure that they would have to publish the award of the option? I am not sure they have to. It has already been posted in FBO and the Sole sourse justification alread includes the added amount.

I believe there will be paper flown. The trick is that we see it in the air. DOD does have to report it to OMB, I think that will be our most likely visibility.

Unless, like tokamak, the results are nuanced and another larger scale unit is needed. And isn't THAT a dreadful thought!

I do not think they will be able to fund another small scale round. I am inclined to think this is make or break as far as navy $$ are concerned. The navy is canning approved recovery projects and re-aligning money almost every day. Congress has also had cracks at killing previously approved projects. There is NO FEAR to re-target money to more fruitful endeavors. Crazy environment these days.

[chrismb]

There is evidence, you just refuse to accept it. I said EVIDENCE, not proof.

WHAT evidence!?!?.... Please, for my sake, re-iterate this evidence.

[chrismb]

Sigh, again with the 'few neutrons' being the only evidence/ data in the Polywell realm.
The neutrons counts published, are not very important at all, except for the sexiness of it and possibly as a conformation/ crosscheck on all the other parameters involved. Things like Wiffleball formation, confinement times, density limits, other plasma behaviors, etc. I am sure EMC2 and reviewers are in possession of this information. In our world, this information does not exist

..and I said there is no evidence WE KNOW OF!!! AND you confirm this very statement, but then it seems you are aiming to somehow imply I am wrong?

Please explain to me what you are trying to say here, in your statement.

[KitemanSA]

There is evidence, you just refuse to accept it. I said EVIDENCE, not proof.

WHAT evidence!?!?.... Please, for my sake, re-iterate this evidence.

Did you not get a copy of the final WB6 report while it was on the AskMar web site? Don't worry, most of the results were published in the Valencia paper. But the report had a bit more specific presentation of the data.

It provided data, and as Dan T pointed out, subsequent statements indicated that the WB7 worked at least as well and that all the theory was "supported" (not proven).

So, there has been data. And there have been other statements. Together they constitute "evidence" but not proof.

[EricF]

I wonder if Tokamak is Russian slang for Money Train

[Brian H]

If you want to see actual fusioneers at work --
http://focusfusion.org/index.php/site/a ... epeatably/

[Brian H]

I wonder if Tokamak is Russian slang for Money Train

Nope. Torus (Donut) Hole.

[chrismb]

Did you not get a copy of the final WB6 report while it was on the AskMar web site? Don't worry, most of the results were published in the Valencia paper.

Nope. I've never seen any final reports on any polywell work.

All I saw in that paper were a table of numbers stated, not measurements taken. I can write out a load of numbers for my experiments too, but it doesn't make the numbers right.

I want to see data. Measurements. Graphs. And the like. A graph of density/energy/well-depth profiles through the wiffleball, and confinement times would be a good start. Something tells me we're not really gonna be seeing reliable measurements of these things, if the [supposed] 'steady state' was a ms or two, but I'll hold out hope that there is such evidence around. I am not going to conceed that the entabulated hearsay of an enthusastic researcher is evidence, we need to see measurements and know how those measurements were taken. Anything less isn't evidence, it is hearsay.

Even just a plot of input current, to evidence charge trapping?