10KW LENR Demonstrator?

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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Aero
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Post by Aero »

parallel wrote:This report has now gone on line.
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.c ... eports.pdf
It gives the radiation & neutron count.

Elsewhere I read that the device has 2 cm of lead shielding.
Unfortunately the original data has been lost but ...
Does scientific research no longer require a chain of evidence as police work does? Reminds me of the time I had 20 billion gazillion dollars in the bank and the bank lost my records. But trust me, my check is still good...
Aero

chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

parallel wrote:I understand my explanation is not good enough because the experiment was not conducted under strict scientific conditions ;-)
The account suggests it didn't even reach the criteria of being conducted under very poor scientific conditions!

Can someone determine, by whatever means [a Wigi board, probably!], two particular questions I have [which certainly cannot be determine by such a presumptive approach of the usual method; simply reading the account!]

1) when was hydrogen first admitted to the apparatus, and by what means is it admitted/controlled [is it just a applied pressure, and if so then what pressure, or if it is not a constant pressure then what flow rate mechanism is operating and how does it determine the operating flow rate]?

( -- or is the hydrogen bottle another 'black box!!!)

2) where does the 'dry steam' go? Does it vent into the room, or what? [also, what is the internal diameter of that hose carrying the steam?

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

I really want to second what Goatguy, a frequent commenter on NBF said,
"The areas which should have been tidied up were condensing the effluent back to liquid water, so that the # of liters could be measured to confirm the induction-of-flow from the flow-meters. All it would take would be slipping one decimal point, and then suddenly the "heater resistor" would account for all vaporization. (The amount of resistor power was not clear - the first experiment over 1,100 watts, but the 2nd experiment I couldn't quite tell. It has been reported elsewhere as 460? watts). Therefore just by power-to-power comparison, there is either an 8× (experiment #1) or 20× (ex#2) relative difference between input supply power and effluent computed power. So "slipping a decimal" would be an obvious slip."
Exactly my feelings. I am so surprised that nobody did that.

Betruger
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Post by Betruger »

Ouija

icarus
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Post by icarus »

Did the Wright brothers produce beautifully edited papers for peer review rejection by esteemed scientists of the day or did they build aeroplanes?

"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work."
Thomas A. Edison

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Did the Wright brothers produce beautifully edited papers for peer review rejection by esteemed scientists of the day or did they build aeroplanes?

Well, the Wright brothers did not fly their planes in a black box, only letting the audience see a few measurement results of the flying planes, did they?
No, they had their planes out for everyone to see.

Enginerd
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Post by Enginerd »

icarus wrote:Did the Wright brothers produce beautifully edited papers for peer review rejection by esteemed scientists of the day or did they build aeroplanes?
The Wright brothers took their machine out and demonstrated it in a way that was public, repeatable, and irrefutable.
icarus wrote:"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work."
Thomas A. Edison
And snakeoil continues to be purchased by people who find due diligence is too much effort. The purveyors of this machine are making extraordinary claims, and thus some extraordinary evidence should quite reasonably be expected.

Axil
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Post by Axil »

Catch 22

You can not get a patent until you show your device and

You can not show you device until you get a patent.

The way to break this impasse is to give your device to the world and let someone else profit from it.

AcesHigh
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Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:59 am

Post by AcesHigh »

Skipjack wrote:
Did the Wright brothers produce beautifully edited papers for peer review rejection by esteemed scientists of the day or did they build aeroplanes?

Well, the Wright brothers did not fly their planes in a black box, only letting the audience see a few measurement results of the flying planes, did they?
No, they had their planes out for everyone to see.
no, almost noone saw they fly before 1908, except a few farmers from their town.

while that, in 1906, Santos Dummont flew in front of a crowd of thousands in Paris, and was acclaimed as the first men to fly a heavier than air machine, by the Aeroclube de France.


The Wrights kept everything in secret and only started doing REALLY public flights in 1908, two years after Santos Dummont.

chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

[@Axil] Nonsense. The Wright bros patented 3-axis control. Flight, lifting surfaces, and powered flight had already been achieved. The Wright bros were superlative in bringing all those together whilst also patenting 'the last step' [3-axis control]. They did this together with their 1902 glider. After repeating this effort with a powered machine in 1903, they they went into seclusion and further developed the machine to make it commercially viable for fear of being ridiculed with an imperfect and under-developed machine that was unfit for demonstrations. [Some words of wisdom there, I think!!!]

[Please review/check the information above - if you know better than my memory...]

[edit...post crossed over with AH there...]

icarus
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Post by icarus »

Maybe Mr. Berlusconi has promised dancing girls would be sent around to the first Italians to come up with a solution to the high oil and gas prices!

The place is a madhouse politically, who's to say what else is acceptable?

It happens all over the world albeit in the US they appoint a govt. dept. overseer, cloak it in fancy administratese-speak and pretend everything is above board.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Fusion in physics is (in many cases) a two body problem.

A fusion reactor is an n body problem. Where n =~ infinity.

Things get tricky.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

dch24
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Post by dch24 »

Ok, is anybody going to bring up "The Journal of Nuclear Physics" ? I ran a whois on the domain to verify for myself. Creation Date: 26-feb-2010

It is most definitely not a peer-reviewed journal.

Although I am way, way interested in encouraging any effort to develop fusion, they haven't published in a real journal yet.

Quixote2
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Post by Quixote2 »

If I had to guess, the heat is from oxidation of the nickel metal by water vapor to nickel oxide (burning). The presence of an oxide layer on the nickel metal will prevent further oxidation (stainless steel is stainless because of the protective oxide film). Free hydrogen in the steam gas over the nickel can diffuse through the protective oxide film and form defects so that the water vapor can oxidize the nickel hydride and some additional nickel metal reforming an oxide film. The gas phase requires a larger excess of free hydrogen to accelerate the reaction to a measurable rate and replace the hydrogen swept out of the reactor in the steam. If it was fusion, the reaction would require 1/10 billionth 1e-10 gram of hydrogen per hour for 12,000 watts and could have been prechargedwith hydrogen. They danced around the weight measurements before and after because you could definately measure the weight increase of converting nickel metal to nickel oxide.

Ivy Matt
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Post by Ivy Matt »

Axil wrote:Catch 22

You can not get a patent until you show your device and

You can not show you device until you get a patent.

The way to break this impasse is to give your device to the world and let someone else profit from it.
Once you have something that is useful, novel, and actually works, you submit an application to the patent office. In your application you describe the functioning of your device in sufficient detail that anyone "skilled in the art" can reproduce it. An invention that is not described in sufficient detail to be reproduced is not a patent; it's a trade secret. Trying to patent a trade secret is trying to have your cake and eat it too. If you want to receive the benefit of a temporary, government-enforced monopoly for your invention, you have to make it all public. That's the deal. The alternative is trade secrets and non-disclosure agreements. It's either one or the other.

I can understand why you call it a "Catch 22", and perhaps patent offices should keep all patents confidential until they're granted. I don't know, but plenty of people submit patent applications even with things as they stand. In Ing. Rossi's case I think the European Patent Office rightly rejected his patent. His device would be useful, but it's not certain that it's novel, that it works, or that it has been disclosed in sufficient detail that anyone "skilled in the art" can reproduce it. There are several things (based on my reading of the partial rejection) that Ing. Rossi can do to remedy this:

*He can submit an amended patent application which describes the functioning of his device in sufficient detail that it may be reproduced. Perhaps he has already done this in his patent application as it now stands, although the patent examiner didn't seem to think so. If so, it shouldn't be too long before scientists around the world are reproducing his results, and then he (and/or Focardi and/or Piantelli) should be granted the patent.

*He can explain the functioning of his device, either according to a generally-accepted theory, or according to a testable theory which can be confirmed by independent researchers. It doesn't necessarily prove his device works, but it would certainly lower a barrier to getting his patent granted.

*He can provide detailed experimental evidence demonstrating the viability of his device. In fact, this seems to be what he is in the process of doing. Again, this doesn't necessarily prove his device works, but it allows those skilled in the art to better assess its functioning.

*He can allow a few groups of independent researchers to replicate his experiment under non-disclosure agreements. Of course, there's always the risk that one or more groups will fail to replicate the experiment, but some replication is still better than none at all.

If Rossi's device is actually proven to work in various independent experiments, I'm sure he will be granted the patent (if there are no viable contenders). No doubt he will have to amend his patent application, but he will be granted it.

For those who are curious, here is Piantelli's patent application. I've only skimmed it, so I'm not sure how closely it compares to Rossi's device.

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