10KW LENR Demonstrator?

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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Ivy Matt
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Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 6:43 am

Post by Ivy Matt »

parallel wrote:Interview by New Energy Times of Ing. Rossi
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/ ... yzer.shtml
Yes, I have a very precise idea, and I think I understand perfectly the mechanism, but to explain it, though, it would be necessary first that the patent gets approved.
It's clear, though, that for us to reveal trade secrets, the patent, currently pending, will have to be accepted. If it isn’t, we'll keep trade secrets for obvious reasons.
I get the impression Ing. Rossi isn't quite clear on the concept of a patent.

Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Post by Skipjack »

I have tried to keep up with the discussion here, but I found it quite irrelevant given the small amount of actual facts that we have seen so far.
What I do notice, is a huge lack of professionalism on the sides of Rossi and the "independent" observers present at the scene.
Measurement instruments were insufficient and unfit for the task. Crucual measurements were not peformed. Rossi on his part refused to provide, a working theory, a testitem for independent verification and a detailed description of the aparatus that allows it to be replicated by others.
Result: The demonstration was worthless and so is any and all speculation based on this.
Personally, I am waiting for more information to arise before I make my final verdict. If we are to believe the predicted timelines, then this will be very soon. Until then, I will hold it with the words of a jewish friend of mine who likes to say:
"bevor ich mich so wunder, glaub ich's lieber nicht".
which loosely translates to:
"instead of wondering to much (about it), I would rather not believe it"
;)

KitemanSA
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Location: OlyPen WA

Post by KitemanSA »

Skipjack wrote: ... Personally, I am waiting for more information to arise before I make my final verdict. If we are to believe the predicted timelines, then this will be very soon. Until then, I will hold it with the words of a jewish friend of mine who likes to say:
"bevor ich mich so wunder, glaub ich's lieber nicht".
which loosely translates to:
"instead of wondering to much (about it), I would rather not believe it"
;)
A wonderful sentiment so long as you don't try to raise ludicrous reasons why it "can't" be.

There is an old saying "Oughtta be ain't IS".
Conversely, Oughtn'tta be ain't isn't.

Axil
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Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:34 am

Post by Axil »

The Rossi claim to extreme excess heat production could well be a fraud because the results obtained from nano-powder are about the same nuclear results that are obtained from bulk nickel.


The Rossi patent application states that excess heat is a product of LENR nuclear activity. If this claim is true then the excess heat produced must also be proportional to the character of the nuclear activity.


According to LENR theory, the larger the LENR rate in reactions per second, the atomic number of the ash element byproducts that are found will be higher up the atomic number scale then zinc.


As an example, we should be seeing elements appear in the ash greater in atomic number then the element zinc; we should see gallium, arsenic, and selenium and so rising on up the atomic number scale.


This leads me to believe that the activity on the surface of the nano-powder is no greater than that produced by bulk nickel.


If fraud exists on the part of Rossi, it is in the quantity rather than in the cause; that is in gross overstatement of the production of excess heat.


If nuclear activity is proportional to heat production, then there is clearly a disconnect between the LENR heat production mechanism that Rossi claims and the amount of heat produced by the Rossi reaction.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

A wonderful sentiment so long as you don't try to raise ludicrous reasons why it "can't" be.
Never said that it cant be. I just said that there is not enough information and as long as there is not enough information, I will be in doubt. That does not mean that it is not true. I just dont know enough facts to believe it.

Axil
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Re: Comment from Delta Ohm

Post by Axil »

nferguso wrote:I submitted a question to Delta Ohm srl:
Sirs,

I have a question regarding the suitability for a particular purpose of one of your instruments, the Delta OHM # HD37AB1347 Indoor Air Quality Monitor. The purpose is to measure accurately the relative quantity of steam to liquid water aerosol in a gaseous exhaust. The exhaust consists exclusively of water or steam - no other gasses or other substances.
I am concerned that, though the instrument may be suitable for measuring the ratio with respect to volume, it isn't quite sensitive enough to measure the ratio with respect to mass. I am concerned about this because of the great difference in specific density between steam and liquid water (1600X). The gas flow might contain an insignificant amount of liquid by volume, yet by mass the liquid could constitute the great majority of the exhaust's mass. It is that condition that I need to detect. Yet some instruments might not be capable of sensing that case.
Can you tell me if I am correct in this concern, or if the HD37AB1347 can measure the ratio of specific densities in the exhaust with reasonable accuracy? I'm thinking +/- 10% is more than enough.
Thank you very much for your advice on this question.
Ms. Valentina Meneghini responded:
Thank you for your inquiry.
Actually we regret to inform you that we do not have any instrument among our production which is suitable for your application.
Any further information about our instrument is available on our website, where you can also download any data sheet as well as the general catalogue
The response implies that there is no way to know if the exhaust of their device is purely steam, or if the bulk of it (by mass) is liquid aerosol. If the latter, then even assuming that the liquid is near 100 deg C, the power claimed is off by a factor of at least 6, or ~2kW vs. ~12kW. Perhaps someone with experience in the dynamics of teapots could guess what's actually in the exhaust?
Why get so fancy, simple is the best way to go.

One simple way to test the heat output capacity of the steam output of Rossi’s reactor is to put this steam output through a heat exchanger immersed in a well insolated fixed quantity of water. By using a simple thermometer, the temperature rise in this water can determine both the energy production rate as a function of time and the total amount of energy produced.

Such simple and straightforward analytical means would have added credibility to the Rossi demo at least in my mind.

Tom Ligon
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Post by Tom Ligon »

This whole subject (hole subject?) got me wondering just what Axil or any other person not supported by an existing lab would need to pursue this subject in a meaningful manner.

Analyzing the electrodes for evidence of transmutation is a basic need. Used to be I could have slipped into the SEM lab where I used to work, and fire up the Cambridge Stereoscan with EDS unit. One sold recently for a bit under $20 grand. With one of those you could not just analyze the metal but also image it to any power from 10 x to something like 100,000 x. Just the trick for fancy nano-whatsit electrodes.

Sensitivity of these instruments is such that they are OK for semiquantitative measurements on the order of a percent. They won't do much for trace changes, but they should detect the wholesale transmutations reported. Beyond that, you would probably need flame spectrometry for precise alloy measurements, and mass spectrometry to spot unusual isotope ratios. A quadrupole mass spec can be had for around $4000 new, good for 100 AMU/q

But a used SEM is likely to be problematic. If you just want to analyze metals, there are any number of hand-held x-ray flourescence units on the markets. Not cheap, though. This one is about $30 grand. Probably you would just rent one for a month or two. But once proficient with one, there is probably a good market for its services.

http://www.trs-environmental.com/Model/ ... SD_LE.aspx

The instrumentation to do this right is expensive for amateur, but not entirely out of reach. I'll probably want to re-establish my consulting business when I retire, and a few gizmos like this might be just the ticket. I already have a selection of thermocouple thermometry stuff, current measurement, some datalogging.

Thermography would be a great benefit in analyzing what LENR apparatus is up to if it is glass and not all covered with silver tape.

The Fusor crowd shows us that amateurs can acquire decent radiation measurement equipment.

KitemanSA
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Location: OlyPen WA

Post by KitemanSA »

Skipjack wrote:
A wonderful sentiment so long as you don't try to raise ludicrous reasons why it "can't" be.
Never said that it cant be. I just said that there is not enough information and as long as there is not enough information, I will be in doubt. That does not mean that it is not true. I just dont know enough facts to believe it.
Just between you and me, me neither. But I can hope!

Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Post by Skipjack »

But I can hope!
Between you and me, I do hope as well. Would be darn cool and the thought of the possibilities makes me giggle even ;)
But then... Well, lets wait what happens. If things keep progressing as announced, we will all know more soon, one way or the other.

Nik
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Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:14 pm
Location: UK

At the risk of repeating myself...

Post by Nik »

Whatever comes of this, it must surely qualify for a 'Science igNobel', given they've done just about everything in such a hapless way. With such gaping holes in both theory and methodology, acute skepticism is inevitable...

I'd really, really like this to come good, but we've seen too many 'Over Zero' merchants to dare to believe...

chrismb
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Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:00 pm

Post by chrismb »

Tom Ligon wrote:This whole subject (hole subject?) got me wondering just what Axil or any other person not supported by an existing lab would need to pursue this subject in a meaningful manner.
Some answers to questions, Tom, like; exactly what did Rossi do? I think we'll find that's all that is needed to answer all the questions!

Jboily
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Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:50 am

Post by Jboily »

chrismb wrote:
Tom Ligon wrote:This whole subject (hole subject?) got me wondering just what Axil or any other person not supported by an existing lab would need to pursue this subject in a meaningful manner.
Some answers to questions, Tom, like; exactly what did Rossi do? I think we'll find that's all that is needed to answer all the questions!
You know, there was already a lot of report on Anomalies with hydrogen loaded nickel since a lot time, even before the first cold fusion announcement 20 years ago. I think what Rossi did is not much different from this experiment here, “Absorption/adsorption processes of hydrogen isotopes observed for Pd nano-powders” in http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/confer ... tracts.pdf

They where looking for D-D reaction in Pd, but tried with Ni with no heat release. Maybe they did not go to high enough temp to start the reaction, or an other catalyst was used. It would not take much experimentation to find the actual catalyst used (maybe a few hundred trial with fraction of a g size samples.

I am starting to warm up to the idea that this effect is real, and am really looking forward for the 1Mw scale plant.

Cheers,

jb

icarus
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Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:48 am

Post by icarus »

Does anyone know what type of energy is being converted into heat here?

The energy has to come from somewhere ... doesn't it? Or are we truly in a new era of science?

Axil
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Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:34 am

Post by Axil »

Coming up with a safe and workable Rossi type LENR reactor is no easy job. The Rossi reactor is very close in concept to the nuclear light water reactor at least in terms of heat management. Through long and painful experience, it has taken the current global nuclear power industry many decades of fits and starts to come up with a passively safe light water reactor design. These passive protections contribute to the majority of the costs for the light water reactor.

If scaled up to the gigawatt utility power level, the LENR designs don’t have the same negative void feedback mechanisms used by current light water reactors to prevent meltdowns. As an investor in this technology I would want to be perfectly assured that there is something that assures controllably safe operations of the Rossi reactor. In the event of a Rossi reactor malfunction, liability imposed by the legal consequences could be disastrously expensive.

If the Rossi reactor is kept small, would the home owner want to expose himself to a hydrogen exposition?

For example, what happens when the water cooling pump fails? Does the unit overheat and melt down due to a lack of water cooling.

Rossi said that the LENR reaction he uses can get hot enough to melt nickel. Can this run away heat produce a hydrogen explosion?

Will this reactor produce radioactive isotopes that can be cast widely on the wind by explosion if not confined within a containment structure?

Rossi still has many safety related questions to answer that have nothing to do with trade secrets.
Last edited by Axil on Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Jboily
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Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:50 am

Post by Jboily »

Axil wrote:Coming up with a safe and workable Rossi type LENR reactor is no easy job. .... Rossi said that the LENR reaction he uses can get hot enough to melt nickel. Can this run away heat produce a hydrogen explosion? .
Axil,
you are quite correct, there are a lot of engineering to be done outside of the theoretical physic.

Rossi have said that they are downgrading the commercial reactors to a Qe of 8:1 in order to reduce the risk of a runaway. He also said that they got some explosions during their trials.

jb

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