.4 grams of hydrogen is a bunch of hydrogen. My guess is that this large volume of hydrogen combines with the nickel powder to form a nickel hydride with the nickel powder.MSimon wrote:OK so where did the mass that didn't turn into energy go? Hidden in the magic powder as a photon flux? Or maybe they need to set up a neutrino detector.Axil wrote:Rossi needs to pack hydrogen in the magic powder before this reaction can be preformed. This hydrogen packing could be incomplete when the reaction begins and only asymptotically approaches 100% (but never really gets there) over an extended timeframe.MSimon wrote:So I want an explanation of all the energy they aren't getting.
I suspect Link Wrays myself.
10KW LENR Demonstrator?
MSimon,
I doubt anyone has answers at this point. Certainly I don't.
Two possible answers to your question.
1. The heat is due to change in binding energy, not simple mass conversion
2. The 0.4 grams is the amount of H2 fed in and doesn't show the amount left afterwards.
Why I am inclined to take it seriously (until disproven) is put by two emminent scientists:
We simply don't know enough about it to say anything except it is either a clever fraud or nuclear - not chemical.
I doubt anyone has answers at this point. Certainly I don't.
Two possible answers to your question.
1. The heat is due to change in binding energy, not simple mass conversion
2. The 0.4 grams is the amount of H2 fed in and doesn't show the amount left afterwards.
Why I am inclined to take it seriously (until disproven) is put by two emminent scientists:
ref http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_m ... 111124.eceKullander: Well, partly because he says it, partly because it is a process that is kinematically perfectly possible (a reaction that produces energy if it really occurs) and partly because he has optimized (the process) in different ways. In the case of nickel powder, for example, he has maximized the surface to optimize the adhesion of hydrogen. On point after point, he has behaved rationally in order to optimize the experimental conditions. On the other hand we cannot from molecular physics and nuclear physics find an acceptable explanation. We need to get more data from the experiment before we can start thinking about explanations.
Essén: What I think is important in this context is that for the first time, so to speak, there is a device which is made in many units and which is being sold, and has been tested by independent people -- input, output -- how much energy that comes in and how much that comes out, in circumstances which these people have controlled.
And that has not happened before in this context. So the physicist Levi believes in this, and the physicist Focardi believes in this, and I believe (their credibility) is above all doubts. It is of course difficult to assess the inventor Andrea Rossi, but there are enough people involved, and enough good data and reports to make it look very seriously at this stage.
Mats Lewan: You have both had the opportunity to send questions directly to Rossi via email, and have received replies. What impression have you got from this dialogue?
Kullander: Well, it has reinforced my impression that he is serious. I find that he is an interesting person to talk to, and I find it hard to imagine that he has indeed created a scam.
Essén: I get the same impression. It seems very unlikely that it is a pure fraud.
We simply don't know enough about it to say anything except it is either a clever fraud or nuclear - not chemical.
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CherryPick
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:39 pm
- Location: Finland
Americium 242
From the other thread here we find information about Americium 242 http://thefutureofthings.com/articles.php?itemId=26/64/. Pick there 
)
The cost the Americium 242 will be high if/when it becomes available. Rossi has told that the cost of his device will be around 1c/kWh.
No doubt that Rossi's forthcoming devices will have their commercial and technical challenges. Let's forget that bad history of cold fusion and focus on real science and engineering which have enough challenges without scams. Measurements and facts are good antidotes for frauds.
I thought about the stock market scam when this first arrived and checked the market as I normally do but I did not find any corresponding market movement in the energy sector. It this is the thing, then it must be some local stock market or individual stock that I don't know.
Stock prices of the renewable energy stocks have recently plummeted because of the large scale fraud that Europol found in carbon credit marked and because the myth of climate change has lost its credibility due to overwhelming evidence against it.
Energy efficiency resembles now the efficiency of Rossi's device which delivers 15 kW for half of the year. (allegedlyA 175 cm (69 inch) 10.5 ton Am-242 battery could produce 140 kW of electricity for a period of up to 80 days, after which its 3.2 kg (7 lb.) Am-242 "core" would require replacement.
) The cost the Americium 242 will be high if/when it becomes available. Rossi has told that the cost of his device will be around 1c/kWh.
No doubt that Rossi's forthcoming devices will have their commercial and technical challenges. Let's forget that bad history of cold fusion and focus on real science and engineering which have enough challenges without scams. Measurements and facts are good antidotes for frauds.
I thought about the stock market scam when this first arrived and checked the market as I normally do but I did not find any corresponding market movement in the energy sector. It this is the thing, then it must be some local stock market or individual stock that I don't know.
Stock prices of the renewable energy stocks have recently plummeted because of the large scale fraud that Europol found in carbon credit marked and because the myth of climate change has lost its credibility due to overwhelming evidence against it.
If this is a hoax is not Americium 242 or any radio-isotope how is the energy source. Radioactivity can not be turned on and off on demand.
In case of a hoax its must be a brilliant invention. Maybe some devise how can transfer energy without a cord. And remember there have been extra ordinary fraud before. They can looks completely serious for an expert.
My odds for this is.
5% A mistake.
45% A revolutionary new energy source.
50% A hoax
In case of a hoax its must be a brilliant invention. Maybe some devise how can transfer energy without a cord. And remember there have been extra ordinary fraud before. They can looks completely serious for an expert.
My odds for this is.
5% A mistake.
45% A revolutionary new energy source.
50% A hoax
Um. If the SEALED apparatus lost .4g where did it go? We don't see the energy. So where is it?Axil wrote:The hydrogen (.4 grams) is combining with nickel on the surface of the nano-particles. It takes an application of heat at 300C for this chemical process to occur. This initial loading of nickel hydride is where the hydrogen is going.
It went to make heavier elements? Fine. Where is the GCMS evidence?
Seriously couldn't we have at least an engineering level of scepticism?
We could start with - what are the error bands for the mass lost?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
Our problem may be in a difference of how we interpret this quote. This is how I interpret the above statement.“I weighed container before and after charging, and including the gas we let out to empty the tube of air, the consumption of hydrogen was 0.4 grams. That’s nothing!”
1 – Weight the container.
At this point, the container holds nickel powder but does not contain hydrogen
2 – Connect a hydrogen tank
3 – Fill with .4 grams of hydrogen
4 – Close and seal the container
The container now contains nickel powder and an additional .4 grams of hydrogen by weight
5 – Weight the container again
6 – The new weight of the container shows an increase in weight of .4 grams of hydrogen
Start the 18 hours test run with a sealed container.
The .4 grams of hydrogen is not how much was burnt in the 18 hours run. I only records how much hydrogen was used to form nickel hydride by hydrogen packing at the start of the test.
Please correct me if I am incorrect here.
You are incorrect. He is referring to the container of hydrogen. It is the gas tank that he weighed, so as to get the amount of gas it sent into the device. The device wasn't measured - just like it wasn't measured in the last test.Axil wrote: Please correct me if I am incorrect here.
WHY NOT!?!?!?!
Come on guys, we are just filling up pages of empty discussions here.
FACT: The experiments was not done in a properly way.
FACT: the new experiment was not public and hence has little to no value.
FACT: there is more issues against than pro for now.
We cannot be sure that this is a scam, but clearly they are not helping to remove these doubts.
Let's just wait until October.
If we hear no more about Ing. Rossi we will know why, and I will simply add his name at the end of my personal list of "amazing claims but no results" companies, in good company together with BLP, EESTOR and STEORN.
FACT: The experiments was not done in a properly way.
FACT: the new experiment was not public and hence has little to no value.
FACT: there is more issues against than pro for now.
We cannot be sure that this is a scam, but clearly they are not helping to remove these doubts.
Let's just wait until October.
If we hear no more about Ing. Rossi we will know why, and I will simply add his name at the end of my personal list of "amazing claims but no results" companies, in good company together with BLP, EESTOR and STEORN.
MSimon,MSimon wrote:Um. If the SEALED apparatus lost .4g where did it go? We don't see the energy. So where is it?Axil wrote:The hydrogen (.4 grams) is combining with nickel on the surface of the nano-particles. It takes an application of heat at 300C for this chemical process to occur. This initial loading of nickel hydride is where the hydrogen is going.
It went to make heavier elements? Fine. Where is the GCMS evidence?
Seriously couldn't we have at least an engineering level of scepticism?
We could start with - what are the error bands for the mass lost?
I think the problem is in the interpretation of the numbers. The Hydrogen “consumed” is actually the total Hydrogen used to load the nano-particles. The nickel is unloaded before the test, and then loaded with Hydrogen under pressure. The target for the reaction is supposedly about 0.9 atoms of Hydrogen per atoms of nickel. With 0.4 gm of nickel they would be able to load 0.4*0.9*62 gm of nickel, or about 22.3 gm of nickel.
Now, I do not think the whole experiment should be considered fully sealed, they will evacuate the hydrogen from the device at the end of the test either to vaccum or to atmosphere to unload the powder.
They also may vent the hydrogen from the device some times during the test, either for experimentations reason or possibly for some control of the reaction. Rossi is saying that there is about 1 gram of nickel within the device, so they may had a few charge/discharge during the test. There is nothing in what they have said in the reports that would not allow this.
I do not think the tests where to answer questions about how it works, but only to show to the authorities that it is a real device.
If it is a hoax, it is very clever. But most hoaxes are. I think Rossi has what he need now to be authorized to turn their plant in Athens, and we will not here from him until he needs to get some more credibility, or start advertising to sell his devices.
Cheers,
jb