10KW LENR Demonstrator?

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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icarus
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Postby icarus » Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:23 am

Rossi gets some independent confirmation ... of sorts, but still interesting.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/04/swedis ... i-and.html

Generating heat and steam, so something's going on ... more than blackboard scribbling, equations, reviews, reports, pontification, political machinations.

Polywell project has got to get its head out of derriere before it becomes a footnote ... open the books you idiots.

chrismb
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Postby chrismb » Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:39 am

I think we discussed this 'report' already, haven't we?

“Everything that we’ve found so far fits together. There is nothing that seems to be strange. All people seem to be honest and competent,” Essén added.
Faith is everything, in modern science. :roll:

Giorgio
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Postby Giorgio » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:41 am

AcesHigh wrote:if I had more "faith" in Rossi´s reactor, I might have done it.


Remember, the one with no faith will die in the flames of fusion Hell.
Oh wait, this is actually cold fusion... forget about it.

Giorgio
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Postby Giorgio » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:49 am

chrismb wrote:Faith is everything, in modern science. :roll:


Holy water will soon become a new reagent in chemistry labs across the country.

KitemanSA
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Postby KitemanSA » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:14 pm

Giorgio wrote:Holy water will soon become a new reagent in chemistry labs across the country.
You've misspelled it. Water with some electrons missing is holely water. :wink:

Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:38 pm

Yes, that article has already been posted here a while ago. Many things from NBF end up being discussed here and some things that are being discussed here end up on NBF. What a symbiotic relationship ;)

Kahuna
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Postby Kahuna » Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:31 pm

Pure Energy Systems (PES) has posted some "Rossi Hints" which are really just a compiled summary of what is currently "known" from various sources (and some unsourced) about the E-Cat. I did not see anything new, but I think it has some value as a recap of claims/observations. Some items appear to contradict theories and assumptions made here.

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory: ... %27s_Hints

D Tibbets
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Postby D Tibbets » Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:45 pm

One machine, is not enough, instead 4 machines bolted to a table adds credence? It raises my BS meter reading.
Where is the calorimetry? Where is the flow readings, The only thing that means anything is the measured temperature and volume of water flowing into and out of the machine. some intermediate temperature taken from somewhere inside the machine means nothing. I could personally construct a device that has water flowing through it, has some modest input watts, and has a thermometer that measures high temperatures. I could even have a little steam coming out. Unless the researchers/ reviewers/ observers know the energy input and energy output (of the total water in a verifiable manner) any results are worthless.

My design details:
Water pipe in, divider, 99% of water bypassed, 1% diverted to a small tube passing through a few hundred watt resistive heater (coffee pot heating element), a small side vent to show steam coming out. Thermometer in same diverted 1% water flow pipe to show high temperature. Downstream the diverted pipe rejoins the main water flow pipe and flows out of the machine and into the drain. 'Accidently' neglect to measure the temperature in this out flow water. Finally, calculate the heating energy based on the temperature measurement taken internally, and use the 100X greater bypass water flow to calculate the energy out. Eureka!!! :twisted:

This argument could be easily voided, if anyone can indicate that they used temperature measurements from the water drain.

Also, that a thick lead shield was necessary on the original sample , why was it not needed in the others. Even a mildly curious individual could have had an x-ray badge or dosimeter placed near the machines to see if the lead shielding served any purpose. They would only need to be slightly more covert that the reporter that was foiled in this attempt at the January demonstration. And, I wonder what the "passive elements" in the control box is for.
Also, apparently the copper isotopes described are natural isotopes, so the source could easily be contaminates. Did they give numbers and make attempts to correlate the amounts and ratios with the energy claimed presuming some hydrogen nickel reaction?

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

Axil
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Postby Axil » Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:52 pm

raphael wrote:c-o-r-r-e-c-t-i-o-n

With regard to my last post, the H2-inlet valve actually connects to a "tee" which connects to the copper "chamber" below. (There's what looks like a reducer fitting on the upward-projecting part of the tee and then maybe a relief valve or some other sort of termination.)

The downward-projecting part of the tee is where the H2, presumably, flows into an "assembly" of some sort where the heat-producing components reside.

From a fabrication perspective, it would probably be useful if this assembly/reactor could be pre-fastened to the tee and then dropped into the chamber and secured. Ditto from a maintenance perspective, etc.

Sidebar to Axil: You are calling the device a "Cat-E" when "E-Cat" is the term that Rossi is using....



When the Cat-E was downsized, the reaction chamber was greatly reduced in size. So was the internal heater in like proportion. But the copper pipes in the water loop are standard commercial grade sizes and therefore stayed the same size. Remaining the same size, these pipes would take away heat by conduction at the same rate in all sized Cat-E systems. These pipes also carry water. The smaller internal heater could not now overcome all the thermal inertia that these copper pipes and associated water produce when the catalyst/ hydrogen is conditioned during startup.

The reaction chamber must get up to 400C to condition the catalyst with hydrogen when the hydrogen is initially loaded. The internal heater could not do that any longer since it would have been greatly downsized.

A supplemental external band heater was added to heat these external copper pipes in the water loop so that the internally heater would not have to overcome that heat drain overhead imposed by the structure of the Cat-E.

Axil
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Negative hydrogen (H-) ions make all the difference.

Postby Axil » Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:43 am

Negative hydrogen (H-) ions make all the difference.


From the 2010 Piantelli patent an important section is excerpted for your convenience as follows:

The H- ions can be obtained by treating, under particular operative conditions, hydrogen H2 molecules that have been previously adsorbed on said transition metal surface, where the semi-free valence electrons form a plasma. In particular, a heating is needed to cause lattice vibrations, i.e. phonons, whose energy is higher than a first activation energy threshold, through non-linear and an harmonic phenomena. In such conditions, the following events can occur:
a dissociation of the hydrogen molecules that is adsorbed on the surface; an interaction with valence electrons of the metal, and formation of H- ions;
- an adsorption of the H- ions into the clusters, in particular the clusters that form the two or three crystal layers that are most close to the surface. The H- ions can just physically interact with the metal, or can chemically bond with it, in which case hydrides can be formed.

The H- ions can also be adsorbed into the lattice interstices, but adsorption at the grain edges, by trapping the ions into the lattice defects; replacement of an atom of the metal of clusters may also occur.

After such adsorption step, the H- ions interact with the atoms of the clusters, provided that a second activation threshold is exceeded, which is higher than the first threshold. By exceeding this second threshold, in accordance with the Pauli exclusion principle and with the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, the conditions are created for replacing electrons of metal atoms with H- ions, and, accordingly, for forming metal-hydrogen complex atoms. This event can take place due to the fermion nature of H- ion; however, since H- ions have a mass 1838 times larger than an electron mass, they tend towards deeper layers, and cause an emission of Auger electrons and of X rays. Subsequently, since the H- ion Bohr radius is comparable with the metal core radius, the H- ions can be captured by the metal core, causing a structural reorganization and freeing energy by mass defect; the H- ions can now be expelled as protons, and can generate nuclear reactions with the neighbouring cores. More in detail, the complex atom that has formed by the metal atom capturing the H- ion, in the full respect of the energy conservation principle, of the Pauli exclusion principle, and of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, is forced towards an excited status, therefore it reorganizes itself by the migration of the H- ion towards deeper orbitals or levels, i.e. towards a minimum energy state, thus emitting Auger electrons and X rays during the level changes. The H- ion falls into a potential hole and concentrates the energy which was previously distributed upon a volume whose radius is about 10e-12 m into a smaller volume whose radius is about 5x10e-15 m.

At the end of the process, the H- ion is at a distance from the core that is comparable with the nuclear radius; in fact in the fundamental status of the complex atom that is formed by adding the H- ion, due to its mass that is far greater than the mass of the electron, the H- ion is forced to stay at such deep level at a distance from the core that is comparable with the nuclear radius, in accordance with Bohr radius calculation. As above stated, owing to the short distance from the core, a process is triggered in which the H- ion is captured by the core, with a structural reorganization and energy release by mass defect, similarly to what happens in the case of electron capture with structural reorganization and energy release by mass defect or in case of loss of two electrons, due to their intrinsic instability, during the fall process towards the lowest layers, and eventually an expulsion of the the H- ion takes place as a proton, as experimentally detected in the cloud chamber, and nuclear reactions can occur with other neighboring cores, said reactions detected as transmutations on the active core after the production of energy.

According to the above, the actual process cannot be considered as a fusion process of hydrogen atoms, in particular of particular hydrogen isotopes atoms; instead, the process has to be understood as an interaction of a transition metal and hydrogen in general, in its particular form of H- ion.


The H-ion is the active agent in both the Piantelli and Rossi process which itself is just a variation of the Piantelli process.

Upon reading this section of Piantelli patent, I remembered the THYRATRON. The hydrogen thyratron is a high peak power electrical switch which uses hydrogen gas as the switching medium. The switching action is achieved by a transfer from the insulating properties of neutral gas to the conducting properties of ionized gas.


Of interest as applied the Rossi process, the Thyratron communication phase is achieved by introducing plasma into the grid/anode region via slots in the grid structure. The plasma is created in the cathode/grid region by a fast rising trigger pulse applied to the grid(s), which then diffuses to the grid slots where it comes under the influence of the anode field. The trigger plasma provides a copious supply of electrons so that anode breakdown proceeds until ionised plasma connects the cathode and anode.

A thyratron differs from a vacuum tube in that it has a filling of hydrogen which plays a key role in the conduction of relatively large currents with only a nominal voltage drop across the tube.

Electrons emitted from the cathode of a vacuum tube encounter a negative gradient or space charge caused by the presence of other electrons that have been previously emitted. The result is that most of the electrons return to the cathode while only those emitted with the highest energy succeed in penetrating the negative space charge and moving on to the anode.

Because of the presence of gas or vapor molecules in the thyratron, an emitted electron that travels a sufficient distance is likely to collide with a neutral hydrogen gas molecule, and if the energy of the electron is sufficient it will cause the gas molecule to ionize. The neutral hydrogen gas is transformed into plasma of negative ions.

The negative ions, which are relatively long lived, will migrate toward the most positive region of the tube. In doing so, partial neutralization of the negative space charge occurs, a condition which is conducive to an increased flow of electrons from the cathode.

This process is cumulative in that the increased flow of electrons further increases the probability of ionization until the process, when carried to its completion, entirely eliminates the positive space-charge region. Thus, in addition to the higher energy electrons, practically all of the electrons emitted become available for anode current flow, with the maximum current being limited only by the size of the cathode.

In the Rossi reactor, the reaction vessel wall is grounded and is electrostatically neutral. However, it will have a positive charge relative to the electron emitting cathode.

Negative hydrogen ions will travel to the reaction vessel wall and impact the surface of the nickel oxide nanopowder affixed to those reactor walls.

These H- ions will be driven into the countless nanoscopic oxygen vacancy defects produced during the initial conditioning and loading of the hydrogen gas and accumulate where nuclear processes can then take place.

To summarize in simple terms, like the thyratron, the Rossi heater internal to the reaction vessel acts a cathode which emits large quantities of electrons.


The internal heater must be a nichrome wire heating element (melting point of 1400C) enclosed within a tube of ceramic thorium oxide (thoria). Rossi says that he does not use tungsten in the Cat-E reactor.

With thoria there is little difference thermionically when studied as a coating on tantalum or on tungsten, or as a ceramic tube. Experiment and theory indicate that thoria is an excess semiconductor containing a stoichiometric excess of about 10e18 atoms/cm3 of thorium. There is very little sensitivity to oxygen, however, at temperatures above 1577C.

The case for Caesium

The most ion productive element that could be used as a Rossi cathode dopant is caesium. It is compatible with the Rossi process because it is a vigorous getter of oxygen and will readily bind with the oxygen expelled from the NiO nanoparticles. More so than plain Caesium, this oxide of caesium is extremely efficient in the production of electrons when heated.

Rossi has a deep background in thermoelectric technology and this aforementioned approach is standard fare in that discipline. He would tend to think along ion production lines by electricity rather than use a second chemical catalyst to form hydrogen ions.

In addition, the cathode approach provides a direct electrical heat control mechanism independent of the output heat of the reactor.

The difference between the Rossi approach and that of Piantelli is the production of huge amounts of negative ions that interact forcefully with the surface layers of nickel lattice interstices by the Rossi cathode by electrical means. In this way, many hydrogen ions are packed together into the tight confines of the nickel lattice interstices.

The case for Thorium

I suspect that the use of thoria would have been detected using a gamma ray spectrum analyzer which Rossi prohibited since thorium is a gamma emitter.

The goal that Rossi must (and maybe has) achieve is to produce as many hydrogen ions as he can.

I can’t see how a solid catalyst could spill over more hydrogen ions to the primary nickel catalyst then some sort of thermionic ion production mechanism can.

I would use a drop of liquid caesium to form a vapor at high temperatures to produce hydrogen ions.

So at the end of the day, either thorium or caesium could be the secret added catalyst used as a mechanism to produce spill over hydrogen ions for absorption by the depleted nickel oxide catalyst.

Warthog
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Postby Warthog » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:07 pm

D Tibbets wrote:My design details:
Water pipe in, divider, 99% of water bypassed, 1% diverted to a small tube passing through a few hundred watt resistive heater (coffee pot heating element), a small side vent to show steam coming out. Thermometer in same diverted 1% water flow pipe to show high temperature. Downstream the diverted pipe rejoins the main water flow pipe and flows out of the machine and into the drain. 'Accidently' neglect to measure the temperature in this out flow water. Finally, calculate the heating energy based on the temperature measurement taken internally, and use the 100X greater bypass water flow to calculate the energy out. Eureka!!! :twisted:

This argument could be easily voided, if anyone can indicate that they used temperature measurements from the water drain.

Also, that a thick lead shield was necessary on the original sample , why was it not needed in the others. Even a mildly curious individual could have had an x-ray badge or dosimeter placed near the machines to see if the lead shielding served any purpose. They would only need to be slightly more covert that the reporter that was foiled in this attempt at the January demonstration. And, I wonder what the "passive elements" in the control box is for.

Dan Tibbets


You need to read through the various demonstration descriptions more closely. In the first and third demos, there was no "return stream" of liquid water....all water in was converted to dry steam, which was re-condensed.

In the second demo, no steam was produced, so there was a liquid water return.

In all demonstrations, the temperature of the inlet water and "outlet product" was continuously recorded with platinum RTD's and computer software.

In the first and third demonstrations, flow through the reactors was provided by a diaphragm pump, which was "volume calibrated" at the start of the experiments. Since diaphragm pumps are "positive displacement", it is reasonable to assume that the flow rate was constant throughout the experiment.

In the second demonstration, water was taken directly from lab water pipe, through a totalizing flowmeter and into and through the reactor. When the lab was un-occupied during the night, a video camera was trained on the totalizing flowmeter to ascertain variability of water flow.

The reason for the differences in the second demonstration was that some observers argued that the enthalpy of the dry steam may not have been correct, or that the steam itself wasn't actually "completely dry". To counter these objections, they ran the experiment so as not to produce steam, merely a temperature difference between inlet and outlet flows.

No pump was used for the second demonstration because they didn't have one large enough to provide the necessary higher water flow rate.

Lastly, in all demonstrations, the "active" reactor did have lead shields in place. The other reactors shown had it (and insulation) removed so that the full details of construction were visible.

raphael
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Postby raphael » Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:33 pm

The flow of electricity used by the RossiFusion apparatus (from a 220v, 50Hz line) (said electricity as, reportedly, needed for initialization of the reaction and control/stabilization purposes) was also metered.
"As long as the roots are not severed, all is well. And all will be well in the garden." Chauncey Gardiner

ltgbrown
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Postby ltgbrown » Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:51 pm

If the research in thermo electrics (as discussed previously here) meets with some success, one could have quite a small power source for vehicles, houses, whatever. Assuming Roosi's E-Cat is not a scam.
Famous last words, "Hey, watch this!"

Axil
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Postby Axil » Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:16 pm

On 4/21/2001 (last Thursday) there was another test conducted by Hanno Essén. Hanno Essén is currently writing a report on that test. The date of publication of this report is not yet known. This time, the testers measured the weight of the cooling water before and after the test.

Giving your cold fusion reactor to Hanno Essén for unrestricted testing is like giving an airplane to Chuck Yager for flight testing; I will be interesting in how the deniers react to the Hanno Essén report.

Kahuna
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Postby Kahuna » Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:26 pm

Axil,

I assume that is what Rossi was referring to when he said: "you will have very soon a report about the same test repeated, with the flow controlled in an 'idiot-proof' system" on 4/20.

Do you have a link (reference) regarding the new Hanno Essén test and forthcoming report?


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