EM Drive

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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Carl White
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Re: EM Drive

Postby Carl White » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:21 pm

RERT wrote:Can you quote me their claims of thrust? There are no press releases on their website with any claims that I can see.


Here's something at least:

http://cannae.com/cubesat/

Cannae’s thruster technology is capable of generating thrust from a few uN up through several newton thrust levels and higher levels. The Cannae thruster technology is particularly useful for small satellite missions due to low power, mass and volume requirements. Our thruster configuration for the cubesat mission with Theseus is anticipated to require less than 1.5 U volume and will use less than 10 watts of power to perform station keeping thrusting.


Also:

Theseus is going to be launching a demo cubesat which will use Cannae thruster technology to maintain an orbit below a 150 mile altitude. This cubesat will maintain its extreme LEO altitude for a minimum duration of 6 months. The primary mission objective is to demonstrate our thruster technology on orbit. Secondary objectives for this mission include orbital altitude and inclination changes performed by the Cannae-thruster technology.

ScottL
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Re: EM Drive

Postby ScottL » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:50 pm

Their claims are vague at best. They have no published work that has gone through peer-review, nor any public demonstrations at this point. We know so little about their setup and results. That being said, the best recorded results thus far were from the Chinese professor (Yang) who later moved the power supply onto the test rig instead of having it fed via wire. This modification ended in a null result and Yang retracting her previous claim of thrust, so.... I'd take any claims that have not been peer-reviewed or published with a grain of salt.

Diogenes
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Re: EM Drive

Postby Diogenes » Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:14 pm

Carl White wrote:"Cannae is deploying a cubesat thruster"

http://cannae.com/cannae-is-developing- ... -thruster/

Full text:

Cannae is forming a new company to commercialize Cannae thruster technology for use on small satellites. Theseus Space Inc. will use Cannae thruster technology to maintain (for a minimum of 6 months) the orbit of a 6U cubesat flying below a 150 mile orbital altitude. Theseus will launch the satellite within 24 months and will use an existing satellite integrator for the build and launch of the cubesat. LAI International remains a key partner in Cannae thruster development and project management. More news to follow.


At last one is going to be put into space. One way or another, the issue will be resolved.




Excellent news. If it doesn't work, we can quit contemplating this idea. If it does work, that will simply be amazing. We might actually work out a good theory as to how it works, and then develop stronger thrust.

It fires the imagination about what might actually happen in the realm of space travel.


Given that the idea started because of satellite station keeping problems, i'm sorta thinking the idea has already been tested in space.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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kunkmiester
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Re: EM Drive

Postby kunkmiester » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:10 pm

I would still like a statistical analysis of current satellites. If the effect was indeed observed in station keeping records, it will show up across most satellites right? So you can independently verify his findings.
Evil is evil, no matter how small

RERT
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Re: EM Drive

Postby RERT » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:57 am

Sadly, a lightbulb design that doesn't work won't prove very much on the concept of the electric lightbulb, but is disappointing.

Has EMdrive been tested in space?

If you want to go all-in speculation/conspiracy, check out the Operational History of the X37B OTV in Wiki. The thing was designed to spend 270 days in space, and has clocked up a mission of 675 days. Some missions were to test 'new space technologies' and were declared a 'spectacular success'. Interestingly they seem to later be quite candid about testing a Hall effect thruster, so presumably that isn't the new space technology. The dates line up fairly well with the time when Shawyer implies that the EMDrive program went 'black' (I can't remember his exact words).

ladajo
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Re: EM Drive

Postby ladajo » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:52 pm

Well, the 37B would be a really good platform to test that on. We shall see. IMHO I think they are testing sensors, comm gear, and maybe energy storage methods. General space infrastructure stuff. As I put my Space Hat on, I comment seriously that space is not easy. Not nearly as easy as the Average Joe thinks. And when something is not easy, the real world tends to stick to the basics to gain functionality. However, only those in the program(s) really know. And in compartment world, they probably don't know what each other are doing either. :)
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Diogenes
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Re: EM Drive

Postby Diogenes » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:13 pm

kunkmiester wrote:I would still like a statistical analysis of current satellites. If the effect was indeed observed in station keeping records, it will show up across most satellites right? So you can independently verify his findings.



Sawyer said it showed up in satellites that had high power microwave transmitters, (which he managed) so I think it would show up in satellites similar to those. Low power transmitters, probably not.


This is one of my first thoughts on this subject (years ago) too. If he says there are stationkeeping adjustments that must always compensate for the transmitters, shouldn't this be a problem for all the satellites with high powered transmitters?


I suppose an argument could be made that perhaps it only manifests on satellites with the same design of transmitter/antenna as what his company used, but it would still be worth a look.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

paperburn1
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Re: EM Drive

Postby paperburn1 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:04 pm

As I see it the only way for this to work is no special frame of reference. In this case, the only way to sort of preserve conservation of energy is to limit drive efficiency to that of a photon drive. This is not a very useful drive, though, since it has the same (low) performance as a photon drive.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

kunkmiester
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Re: EM Drive

Postby kunkmiester » Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:39 pm

Diogenes wrote:
kunkmiester wrote:I would still like a statistical analysis of current satellites. If the effect was indeed observed in station keeping records, it will show up across most satellites right? So you can independently verify his findings.



Sawyer said it showed up in satellites that had high power microwave transmitters, (which he managed) so I think it would show up in satellites similar to those. Low power transmitters, probably not.


This is one of my first thoughts on this subject (years ago) too. If he says there are stationkeeping adjustments that must always compensate for the transmitters, shouldn't this be a problem for all the satellites with high powered transmitters?


I suppose an argument could be made that perhaps it only manifests on satellites with the same design of transmitter/antenna as what his company used, but it would still be worth a look.


My big point was that a third party could verify that research with minimal investment. I figured it would be a logical step to see how the trend carries over various satellites and their configurations.
Evil is evil, no matter how small

Diogenes
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Re: EM Drive

Postby Diogenes » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:34 pm

kunkmiester wrote:
My big point was that a third party could verify that research with minimal investment. I figured it would be a logical step to see how the trend carries over various satellites and their configurations.




Or just as quickly demonstrate his claims about stationkeeping adjustments for transmitters, are false.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

ladajo
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Re: EM Drive

Postby ladajo » Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:25 pm

In any event, it seems that Eagleworks is coming out of the dark(ish), and have a paper accepted for publication:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40959.msg1573592#msg1573592
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

williatw
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Re: EM Drive

Postby williatw » Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:35 am

ladajo wrote:In any event, it seems that Eagleworks is coming out of the dark(ish), and have a paper accepted for publication:



From your posted link:


It is my understanding that Eaglework's new paper has been today accepted for publication in a peer-review journal, where it will be published. I expect that Eagleworks should receive notification momentarily (it should be in the mail). :) Note: I have not heard this from anybody employed by NASA.
Congratulations to the Eagleworks team !!!!!!!!


Still it does sound hopeful. Would love to hear what work if any Eagleworks is doing on the even more controversial Sonny White's warp drive experiments. Last thing we heard was that the interferometry white/juday results were "inconclusive".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White%E2% ... er#Results

Sounds to me that once Eagleworks started working on the EM Drive replication everything else seems to be tabled.
Last edited by williatw on Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ladajo
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Re: EM Drive

Postby ladajo » Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:58 am

Chasing the thread I saw the the results are on the order of mN per kw.

We shall see. Even though the conversations I have had with Paul March have always indicated an integrity on his part, I will look at it as I do all claims, it must stand on it's own merit.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

williatw
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Re: EM Drive

Postby williatw » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:21 am

EmDrive: Nasa Eagleworks' paper has finally passed peer review, says scientist in the know

Dr José Rodal says the paper has been accepted by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics

By Mary-Ann Russon August 30, 2016 12:22

EmDrive research from Nasa Eagleworks scientists has apparently passed peer review and will soon be published in the AIAA's Journal of Propulsion and Power

An independent scientist has confirmed that the paper by scientists at the Nasa Eagleworks Laboratories on achieving thrust using highly controversial space propulsion technology EmDrive has passed peer review, and will soon be published by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA).

Dr José Rodal posted on the Nasa Spaceflight forum – in a now-deleted comment – that the new paper will be entitled "Measurement of Impulsive Thrust from a Closed Radio Frequency Cavity in Vacuum" and is authored by "Harold White, Paul March, Lawrence, Vera, Sylvester, Brady and Bailey".


Read more about EmDrive on IBTimes UK:

EmDrive: Nasa Eagleworks confirms paper on controversial space propulsion is under peer review


EmDrive: Finnish physicist says controversial space propulsion device does have an exhaust


EmDrive: British scientist's 'new physics' theory accidentally proves controversial space propulsion works


There is also a line of text that EmDrive enthusiasts believe could be from the paper's extract, which reads: "Thrust data in mode shape TM212 at less than 8106 Torr environment, from forward, reverse and null tests suggests that the system is consistently performing with a thrust to power ratio of 1.2 +/- 0.1 mN/Kw ()".

Rodal also revealed that the paper will be published in the AIAA Journal of Propulsion and Power, a prominent journal published by the AIAA, which is one of the world's largest technical societies dedicated to aerospace innovations.

Eagleworks is an experimental lab that is to Nasa essentially what the secretive Google X "moonshot" R&D lab is to Google/Alphabet, and the space agency is not yet ready to place its official stamp of approval on a technology many still believe does not work.

Although Eagleworks engineer Paul March has posted several updates on the ongoing research to the Nasa Spaceflight forum showing that repeated tests conducted on the EmDrive in a vacuum successfully yielded thrust results that could not be explained by external interference, those in the international scientific community who doubt the feasibility of the technology have long believed real results of thrust by Eagleworks would never see the light of day.

In March, the same Eagleworks engineer announced that their paper was going through the peer review process, but they had no idea when it would be published as "peer reviews are glacially slow".

However, it seems that the wait might finally be over, if Rodal, a long-time supporter of the EmDrive who is building his own version of the Nasa aluminium frustum, is to be believed.





http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/emdrive-nasa-e ... ow-1578716

JoeP
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Re: EM Drive

Postby JoeP » Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:41 pm

I seriously doubt this is a real effect. It contradicts established theory.

I still think this is great news though. The space-enthusiast / sci-fi geek kid in me is excited about the cubesat experiment. If it somehow turns out to be a useful propellentless thruster that beats the photon rocket by an order of magnitude or more, then the whole solar system is open to us. Perhaps even further.

Looking forward to this launch and POC when it happens.


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