EM Drive

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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kunkmiester
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Re: EM Drive

Post by kunkmiester »

If they do, why would they? If they don't, doesn't that give the universe a sort of absolute frame of reference and therefore violate relativity
need to read more, but I've gotten the impression a universal frame of reference wouldn't invalidate relativity at its most basic level, because you're still moving relative to it. A particle pair appearing in the middle of interstellar space would be in a different reference frame than one appearing in earth orbit anyway, so the QV as tied to spacetime can't give you one anyway.

I'm more curious about spacetime curvature and references for establishing that, but that's a bit of a different ballgame.
Evil is evil, no matter how small

GIThruster
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Re: EM Drive

Post by GIThruster »

Axil wrote:Except for the proton, all particles that have so far been discovered have a finite lifespan. The energy level of the particle increases that lifespan. When EMF dumps enough energy into the vacuum, the vacuum turns that energy into mass of a particle via the Higgs field. That new particle is just as real as any other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_production
Well yeah. I did a 40 page research paper on this my junior year in high school back in 1977. This is not new. Particle creation is the opposite of annihilation--the stuff used to produce energy on the Enterprise in Star Trek. This has nothing to do with virtual particle production in the vacuum. Creation which happens with you slam two or more of the right energy photons together, creates real particle with real mass and real energy. That's not what vacuum particle generation is all about.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

RERT
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Re: EM Drive

Post by RERT »

It's late on Friday night, after the bulk of a bottle of red wine, so I contribute this with some trepidation as to how it will look in the morning. I hope you will all still respect me in the morning.

Two points: Einstein made us choose between Newtonian mechanics and Electrodynamics. Doubtless it took decades because this was very unpalatable. But it happened. Like GIT, I'm quite fond of various physical principles, but if quantum mechanics contradicts GR, something has to give. One or other is as likely as not to be rewritten. Saying that the previously held physical principles are inviolable is untenable.

Second, if I recall correctly, vacuum energy density calculated by QM was out by 120 orders of magnitude compared to physical bounds. I don't often find myself on the same side of the argument as Axil. But in this case he's right. Physicists don't seem to have a clue about the vacuum.

Thank you for listening....

R.

AcesHigh
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Re: EM Drive

Post by AcesHigh »

a post by Dr. Rodal in the current page of the thread at NSF
Rodal wrote: I should also note that there are a number of prestigious scientists that wholly disagree with John Baez's assertion that virtual particles are just a bookkeeping device and that they are not real ( http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index. ... msg1355580 ) . For example Gordon Kane, director of the Michigan Center for Theoretical Physics at the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, also writing in Scientific American (as did John Baez with that comment) who wrote:
Gordon Kane, director of the Michigan Center for Theoretical Physics at the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor wrote:Virtual particles are indeed real particles...But while the virtual particles are briefly part of our world they can interact with other particles, and that leads to a number of tests of the quantum-mechanical predictions about virtual particles. The first test was understood in the late 1940s. In a hydrogen atom an electron and a proton are bound together by photons (the quanta of the electromagnetic field). Every photon will spend some time as a virtual electron plus its antiparticle, the virtual positron, since this is allowed by quantum mechanics as described above. The hydrogen atom has two energy levels that coincidentally seem to have the same energy. But when the atom is in one of those levels it interacts differently with the virtual electron and positron than when it is in the other, so their energies are shifted a tiny bit because of those interactions. That shift was measured by Willis Lamb and the Lamb shift was born, for which a Nobel Prize was eventually awarded....
Another very good test some readers may want to look up, which we do not have space to describe here, is the Casimir effect, where forces between metal plates in empty space are modified by the presence of virtual particles.

Thus virtual particles are indeed real and have observable effects that physicists have devised ways of measuring.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... icles-rea/

and it has been predicted since the 1930's that a very strong electric field would transform virtual particles into real ones that we can observe (by separating the particle and antiparticle, so as to prevent annihilation of each other). Lasers in the future may make this real:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... SgmJfmjNpV

and this has already been done with photons:

http://phys.org/news/2011-11-scientists-vacuum.html

The assumption that the Quantum Vacuum is indestructible and immutable demands that virtual particles are exactly the same as real particles because of the experimental observation that a fundamental particle like an electron (or a positron) has the same properties (e.g. mass, charge or spin), regardless of when or where the particle was created, whether now or in the early universe, through astrophysical processes or in a laboratory.

The photons created by the Chalmers scientist, Christopher Wilson and his co-workers, who succeeded in getting photons to leave their virtual state and become real photons, are indistinguishable from real photons now and here, or photons from the early universe arriving to us. Particles like photons, electrons, positrons, protons and antiprotons don't come with tags reading "virtual" or "real", they don't have hair, or any distinguishing features from each other.

[hr]

What I have a problem seeing is how the very low power electromagnetic fields in the EM Drive operated at room temperature, and the fact that the electromagnetic fields in the EM Drive are standing waves whose Poynting vector is changing direction at a frequency twice as high as the operating frequency, can result in thrust from the vacuum acting like a positron/electron plasma. And I also don't see how Dr. White's computer code can get a directional thrust from the energy density, which, as I discussed is a scalar component with no direction in space ( http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index. ... msg1355995 ).

GIThruster
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Re: EM Drive

Post by GIThruster »

AcesHigh wrote:
Gordon Kane, director of the Michigan Center for Theoretical Physics at the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor wrote:Every photon will spend some time as a virtual electron plus its antiparticle, the virtual positron, since this is allowed by quantum mechanics as described above.
Though this is true, it is irrelevant. The question is not whether these virtual particles have being, it is whether they exist and thus have mass. If they do not have mass, they cannot be used for momentum transfer. If they do have mass, they would collapse the universe or, we must distinguish between gravitational and inertial mass, which violates EEP and GR.
Another very good test some readers may want to look up, which we do not have space to describe here, is the Casimir effect, where forces between metal plates in empty space are modified by the presence of virtual particles.

Thus virtual particles are indeed real and have observable effects that physicists have devised ways of measuring.
This is bullshit. Kane is here treating Casimir as if it were evidence for virtual particles having inertial mass, and everyone in the field knows that the Casimir effect is just as easily explained by van der Waals forces. This is shabby thinking, otherwise known as assuming the consequent. You're not surprised to make thinking errors like this once you're out of high school. And this is one of the things that pisses me off, when the ZPFer's pretend Casimir is evidence when they know they are merely participating in circular reasoning. This is deliberate deception.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

GIThruster
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Re: EM Drive

Post by GIThruster »

AcesHigh wrote:
Gordon Kane, director of the Michigan Center for Theoretical Physics at the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor wrote:Every photon will spend some time as a virtual electron plus its antiparticle, the virtual positron, since this is allowed by quantum mechanics as described above.
Though this is true, it is irrelevant. The question is not whether these virtual particles have being, it is whether they exist and thus have mass. If they do not have mass, they cannot be used for momentum transfer. If they do have mass, they would collapse the universe or, we must distinguish between gravitational and inertial mass, which violates EEP and GR.
Another very good test some readers may want to look up, which we do not have space to describe here, is the Casimir effect, where forces between metal plates in empty space are modified by the presence of virtual particles.

Thus virtual particles are indeed real and have observable effects that physicists have devised ways of measuring.
This is bullshit. Kane is here treating Casimir as if it were evidence for virtual particles having inertial mass, and everyone in the field knows that the Casimir effect is just as easily explained by van der Waals forces. This is shabby thinking, otherwise known as assuming the consequent. You're not supposed to make thinking errors like this once you're out of high school. And this is one of the things that pisses me off, when the ZPFer's pretend Casimir is evidence when they know they are merely participating in circular reasoning. This is deliberate deception.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

williatw
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Re: EM Drive

Post by williatw »

Sonny White formulated a compressible quantum vacuum conjecture that requires us to live in a portion of the universe that is immersed in a false vacuum that apparently has a ground or zero-energy level much smaller than science first assumed. However what will drive this debate is experimental data first and foremost. Experimental data like what just came out of the Eagleworks Lab's latest warp-field interferometer tests based on 27,000, 1.5 second long on/off data samples that indicates we have finally observed the first spacetime contraction effects that we are fairly confident are the real deal. We again are looking for more possible false positives as well as ways of increasing the signal to noise ratio above its current ~2-to-3 sigma level, which I've already suggested several ways to do so to Dr. White. However what is really interesting about these new test results is that the laser interferometer observed spacetime contractions are being developed in a TM010 RF resonant cavity that is driving ac E-field levels over 900kV/m at a 1.48 GHz rate. A similar RF resonant system used to implement the EM-Drive and Q-thruster designs, for these spacetime contraction effects are paramount to the operation of both.
http://nextbigfuture.com/2015/04/magnet ... ction.html

Game on? comments anyone?

AcesHigh
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Re: EM Drive

Post by AcesHigh »

GIThruster wrote:
AcesHigh wrote:
Gordon Kane, director of the Michigan Center for Theoretical Physics at the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor wrote:Every photon will spend some time as a virtual electron plus its antiparticle, the virtual positron, since this is allowed by quantum mechanics as described above.
Though this is true, it is irrelevant. The question is not whether these virtual particles have being, it is whether they exist and thus have mass. If they do not have mass, they cannot be used for momentum transfer. If they do have mass, they would collapse the universe or, we must distinguish between gravitational and inertial mass, which violates EEP and GR.
seems to me that they are VIRTUAL particles and therefore do not have mass nor can be used for momentum transfer. UNTIL you make them exist, then they cease to be virtual and have mass and can be used for momentum transfer.

since all virtual particles are most of the time only virtual and have no mass, they do not collapse the universe.

but to tell the truth, considering that we know that 95% of the universe mass is unaccounted for, couldn´t those be these virtual particles? How much % of the mass of the universe these virtual particles would be if they HAD mass?

kunkmiester
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Re: EM Drive

Post by kunkmiester »

From reading the thread and the NBF article, it sounds like the virtual particles (especially White's) are supposed to be pretty much what aether was supposed to be in some of the later revised theories.
Evil is evil, no matter how small

Axil
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Re: EM Drive

Post by Axil »

I read an interesting paper about particles that can explain a few things.

Matter and Light in Flatland

http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0401153.pdf
Also
http://yepezoj.blogspot.com/

This model of particle structure was invented to explain why a particle can interfere with itself in a double slite experiment. The esteemed R, Feynman could not figure this one out. The photon or electron must be in two places at once, this means that the electron is also a electromagnetic wave.

As described in the reference, the electron and photon is a EMF wave that is bent around on itself in higher dimensions. This many dimensional EMF wave vibrates like a slinky (a vortex or toroid) where the front and end are taped together. The projection of the wave is reflected in our 4 dimensional world and that projection of a higher dimensional EMF structure could appear in two places at once. These two projections can interfere with each other.

This also explains why real particles must have a resonate energy level to be real. For the electron, that energy must be at least 512 KeV. In order for this slinky wave to form and connect properly from head to tail, it must be of a correct amplitude and frequency. If this wave is less energetic than the magic resonate value, the slinky wave tries to connect head to tail in a vortex, but the wave is not the proper size and shape to connect up. So the energy is fed back to where it came from and the condensation of the particle is retried over again in an endless cycle.

These failed attempt to produce a real particles are where virtual particles come from. Only resonate energy levels make real particles that will produce a properly formed EMF wave that will spin properly in a vortex for a long time. This is why the lifetime of a virtual particle is so short, because the EMF wave cannot connect head to tail in a vortex. The vortex tries to form cut it cannot like up head to tail and the nascent wave falls apart.

Because of the uncertainty principle, the vacuum produces flashes of energy at a average rate but some flashes are weak and some are strong. The weak flashes generate virtual particles that are short lived but the strong flashes produce particle that become real because they are energetic enough to connect head to tail in a vortex.

When a EMF wave pumps up the vacuum, the vacuum becomes increasingly energized, the average value of the energy content of the vacuum goes up, the maximum average energy level of the flashes increase, and the number of strong energy flashes increase. When the EMF is really strong, sometimes high energy resonant particles like mesons can flash into existence.

Axil
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Re: EM Drive

Post by Axil »

AcesHigh wrote:
seems to me that they are VIRTUAL particles and therefore do not have mass nor can be used for momentum transfer. UNTIL you make them exist, then they cease to be virtual and have mass and can be used for momentum transfer.

since all virtual particles are most of the time only virtual and have no mass, they do not collapse the universe.

but to tell the truth, considering that we know that 95% of the universe mass is unaccounted for, couldn´t those be these virtual particles? How much % of the mass of the universe these virtual particles would be if they HAD mass?
Virtual particles don't have mass because they are mostly photons. But failed electrons may have mass if they briefly interact with the Higgs field.

If dark energy in the vacuum turned into the mass of real particles, the universe would contract.

GIThruster
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Re: EM Drive

Post by GIThruster »

AcesHigh wrote:. . .couldn't those be these virtual particles? How much % of the mass of the universe these virtual particles would be if they HAD mass?
If the virtual particles predicted by QM had mass, they would contribute many times more mass to the universe than it could have in order for it to be expanding. The gravitational action of so much mass would have stopped the expansion of the universe long ago and caused it to collapse. This was one of the first objections to ZPF theory when it first emerged back in the 90's I believe, and it has never adequately been accounted for. Indeed, ZPF'ers haven't made an attempt to explain this, which is why I say this is not legitimate science. You need to answer your detractors.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Axil
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Re: EM Drive

Post by Axil »

GIThruster wrote:
AcesHigh wrote:. . .couldn't those be these virtual particles? How much % of the mass of the universe these virtual particles would be if they HAD mass?
If the virtual particles predicted by QM had mass, they would contribute many times more mass to the universe than it could have in order for it to be expanding. The gravitational action of so much mass would have stopped the expansion of the universe long ago and caused it to collapse. This was one of the first objections to ZPF theory when it first emerged back in the 90's I believe, and it has never adequately been accounted for. Indeed, ZPF'ers haven't made an attempt to explain this, which is why I say this is not legitimate science. You need to answer your detractors.
Is super-symmetry legitimate science?

The CERN theorists predict a super-symmetric partner for every particle so far found including anti matter. But LHC has not found any of these predicted particles up to the limit of the power level of the LHC at 7 billon electron volts. Now they will look up to 15 billion electron volts. How much mass will that add to the mass of the universe? What happens if they find a SS partner to the electron and the positron that has a mass beyond 7 billion electron volts? That does not count the mass of dark matter which is different and distinct from super-symmetric particles.

GIThruster
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Re: EM Drive

Post by GIThruster »

Predicting a super-symetric partner is not predicting how many there should be! You're comparing apples and oranges. The trouble with vacuum theory is it requires these outrageous things be true we know are not true! The universe is not collapsed! And take note, the standard response to this challenge is to deny EEP without which there is no GR. So you need to have some very, Very, VERY good reasons to suppose that inertial and gravitational mass are different, and the only reason Dr. White has for denying EEP, GR and conservation is that he wants his vacuum conjecture to be true. It's not as if we've had multiple instances where GR appeared to be wrong. To the best of my knowledge, there are NO such instances.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Axil
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Re: EM Drive

Post by Axil »

But vacuum energy has been proven to exist experimentally. Its called the Casimir effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

Experimenters have pulled a photon out of the vacuum by using a rotating mirror.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/new ... into-light
---------------------------------------------

General Relativity has predicted gravitational waves and none have been detected. It also predicted a contracting universe and the universe is acceleration in its expansion. You can not use one flawed theory to invalidate another theory.

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