EM Drive

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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kunkmiester
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Re: EM Drive

Postby kunkmiester » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:09 pm

All that, and I got the impression that it would still be at photon rocket efficiency, which at this point it's above.
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paperburn1
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Re: EM Drive

Postby paperburn1 » Sat Dec 03, 2016 12:34 am

There are basically two approaches you can use:

1. There is a special frame of reference. In this case, the "reactionless" drive is really pushing against an infinitely massive special frame of reference.
or
2. There is no special frame of reference. In this case, the only way to sort of preserve conservation of energy is to limit drive efficiency to that of a photon drive. This is not a very useful drive, though, since it has the same (low) performance as a photon drive.

There is another way that would work, Not break any laws and still use a single frame of reference. If its efficiency drops the faster it goes until at some point it starts slowing down the more energy applied it looses speed faster with even more energy then you could balance the books that way.
That way it would useful as a "slow" speed pusher but useless and any real velocity's
Based on The modern double-slit experiment but somehow you have developed a method of control of the particles riding down the front of the wave. that would give you a forward biased "thrust".
Hydrodynamic analogs have been developed that can recreate various aspects of quantum mechanical systems, including single-particle interference through a double-slit. A silicone oil droplet, bouncing along the surface of a liquid, self-propels via resonant interactions with its own wave field. The droplet gently sloshes the liquid with every bounce. At the same time, ripples from past bounces affect its course. The droplet’s interaction with its own ripples, which form what is known as a pilot wave, causes it to exhibit behaviors previously thought to be peculiar to elementary particles — including behaviors customarily taken as evidence that elementary particles are spread through space like waves, without any specific location, until they are measured.
Behaviors mimicked via this hydrodynamic pilot-wave system include quantum single particle diffraction,tunneling, quantized orbits, orbital level splitting, spin, and multimodal statistics. It is also possible to infer uncertainty relations and exclusion principles. Videos are available illustrating various features of this system. (See the External links wiki.)
However, more complicated systems that involve two or more particles in superposition are not amenable to such a simple, classically intuitive explanation. Accordingly, no hydrodynamic analog of entanglement has been developed. Nevertheless, optical analogs are possible

Note: there is a lot of handwaveum in this new conjecture and I really do not understand all the math but people smarter than me said it is possible.
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Carl White
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Re: EM Drive

Postby Carl White » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:26 am

Not sure how credible this source is:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/emdrive-chines ... le-1596328

"EmDrive: Chinese space agency to put controversial tech onto satellites 'as soon as possible'"

Chen confirmed that Cast has developed a test device of the EmDrive and that tests to verify that the device can actually fly are already being carried out in low-Earth orbit. This ties in with information sources in the international space industry gave IBTimes UK under condition of anonymity that China already has an EmDrive on its orbital space laboratory Tiangong-2.

Carl White
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Re: EM Drive

Postby Carl White » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:27 pm

A follow-up article from the same website:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/emdrive-these- ... es-1596487

"EmDrive: These are the problems China must fix to make microwave thrusters work on satellites"

And mention elsewhere:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index. ... msg1618754

ScottL
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Re: EM Drive

Postby ScottL » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:09 pm

The fact that the original chinese paper has the misconception that this is a launcher technology should tell all. I'm leaning more and more toward this being a very inefficient photon leaking experiment.

RERT
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Re: EM Drive

Postby RERT » Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:47 pm

The ratio of thrust to power in reported by Shawyer and others is way above a photon rocket. Eagleworks Labs was on the low side of the reports, and they reported 1.2 mN/kW. A perfect photon rocket is 3.33 micro-Newtons/kW.

ScottL
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Re: EM Drive

Postby ScottL » Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:58 am

RERT wrote:The ratio of thrust to power in reported by Shawyer and others is way above a photon rocket. Eagleworks Labs was on the low side of the reports, and they reported 1.2 mN/kW. A perfect photon rocket is 3.33 micro-Newtons/kW.


I haven't read anyone skeptic or believer that accepts Shawyer's claim. Aside from the abundance of articles\critiques of the EW experiment, this is still not a launcher, nor is it a reasonable spacecraft at that measurement. Shawyer and his ideas have been around 20+ years now and I don't see anything yet. Forgive me if I refuse to hold my breath. I would love to be proven wrong though.

RERT
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Re: EM Drive

Postby RERT » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:34 am

ScottL - believe it when we see it is right, but like you and anyone with any imagination, I'm hoping it's real.

I was just responding narrowly to the suggestion that it's a photon rocket. The thrust levels are too high. In fact, that's why it's controversial, come to think of it. Also, if my calculations are right a few mN is enough to counter drag in some orbits, and without propellant that could be very useful. I think Cannae's low-altitude cubesat is intended to show that.

ScottL
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Re: EM Drive

Postby ScottL » Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:36 pm

RERT wrote:ScottL - believe it when we see it is right, but like you and anyone with any imagination, I'm hoping it's real.

I was just responding narrowly to the suggestion that it's a photon rocket. The thrust levels are too high. In fact, that's why it's controversial, come to think of it. Also, if my calculations are right a few mN is enough to counter drag in some orbits, and without propellant that could be very useful. I think Cannae's low-altitude cubesat is intended to show that.


ArsTechnica did a write up on the experiment and in general I agree with their analysis. It appears that the EW experiment suffered from issues that could definitely create noise of that magnitude. Personally, I'm going to wait it out a bit longer, but my hopes are diminishing rapidly with each passing year.

RERT
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Re: EM Drive

Postby RERT » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:31 pm

I guess we'll see. The videos of Paul March, the man who made the measurements, are long but interesting. It's on SSI.org, first of the day 2 videos. He is obviously convinced, maybe to be expected.

ladajo
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Re: EM Drive

Postby ladajo » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:33 pm

Paul has been very self critical of the work based on what he has said to me.
He will welcome critique.
I have never found him to be a self licking ice cream cone.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
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ScottL
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Re: EM Drive

Postby ScottL » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:21 pm

https://www.reddit.com/r/EmDrive/comments/5jf32j/eaglework_paper_contains_major_flaws/

Reddit user Eric1600 has a pretty indepth analysis of the EagleWorks experiment and some issues they appear to have overlooked. I know Paul ventures here on occasion, so hopefully this can come to his attention.

303
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Re: EM Drive

Postby 303 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:29 am


TDPerk
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Re: EM Drive

Postby TDPerk » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:39 pm



http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/12/china-says-tests-of-propellentless.html

It has been reported already they were orbiting a test article. Presumably they were at the point of having run out of reasons for it not to be working, to go to that trouble and forgo other cargo.
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ladajo
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Re: EM Drive

Postby ladajo » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:28 pm

Well, China, lets see some pics of the test article in soace and some formal reporting please. While they may have it, they may also be lying. Wouldn't be the first time.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)


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