10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

GIThruster wrote:That's why verifying the kev gamma reports seems the way to go to me. Should be easy for any independent to come in and wave a Gamma-Scout at it.

Low energy gamma is blocked by many different kinds of materials. Ideally, the shielding between an E-Cat and a Brayton generator would stop the gamma from being wasted. In any case however, we need to verify the claims of kev to begin with. Second thing I'd like to see is power density up in the 10 MW/cubic meter region. That's enough for mobile applications.
One of the easily detected features of the claimed nuclear reactions is radiation. You have to try really hard to imagine any sort of nuclear energy source without it. The WL getout is remarkably unconvincing (another topic).

Equally, detection of significant beta or gamma radition is a pretty certain indicator of something nuclear. So it works both ways:
LENR real <==> betas or gammas can be unambiguously detected at levels well above background from materials + lab.

I live in hope. But it never has happenned yet. Which is one of the several strong arguments against LENR.

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

This physicist quoted above is saying that low kev gamma is predicted by WLT. Do you recall if that's so?
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

parallel
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Post by parallel »

Another E-cat congress in Zurich report (extract) from http://drmyronevans.wordpress.com/
By Horst.
The situation with the E-cat is as follows: Currently a 1 MW version in a container is going to be shipped. A first installation at military exists but cannot ve visited. In about 3 months a company in North Italy will have a first machine from series production which can be studied by interested buyers and investors. The 1 MW version has been certified for industry usage.
The 10 kW version takes longer to certify since some experience with the industrial version has to be available first. Sales may not start before summer/autumn 2013.
The current E-cat technology is based on water steam of 130 degrees Celsius and has a COP of 6. The COP could be higher but has been fixed to this value for saftety reasons. The E-cat is useable mainly for industry heating and cooling applications and will amortise in about 4-5 years. Production of electricity is not meaningful since one would have a COP of 1/6 in the steam-to-electricity conversion, loosing all advantages in total.
Rossi explained details of the next generation device which will produce steam of about 800 degrees. The Ni material is placed between two concentric steel cylinders and the hydrogen will be in a tablet. Both shall be exchangeable in form of a cartrige after 1/2 year. In the current version, external Hydrogen pressure cylinders are required. Operating costs for material are about 6 € per year, but maintenance contracts will be required, and electric input of 1/6 of total power output has to be respected because of the COP of 6.

parallel
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Post by parallel »

See also various videos from pesn.com here: Several hours worth and I haven't looked yet. At least the sound is better quality than the live feed was.

http://pesn.com/2012/09/09/9602178_Ross ... mber_9_QnA

tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

GIThruster wrote:This physicist quoted above is saying that low kev gamma is predicted by WLT. Do you recall if that's so?
WLT supposes that high energy gammas (above 500keV) are absorbed by heavy electrons. That leaves lower energy gammas. They also are vague as to what frequency of re-emmission from heavy electrons would be expected - but claim infra-red. That would be convenient.

Now - why am I unimpressed? There are key questions not answered:
(1) Where are the betas? These will zip out of the WL protected reactive pockets and should decay to gammas are do other stuff that is detectable?

(2) What happens to the reaction products when the WL system is switched off. They must persist, and would result in detectable unshielded radiation at the end of experiments for some time.

(3) Why infra-red? other photons like visible of soft x-ray (keV gamma) are possible. The thesis is that very large amounts of infra-red are produced - surely there should be detectable amts the other stuff?

So the thesis (heavy electrons shield gammas) that looks good initially looks flakey on closer inspection.

A reminder. For 1mW output we have 10^10 1MeV particles per second produced. All we need to measure above background is a few 100. Is it credible the heavy electrons (which apparently are restricted to small micro-sites anyway) can catch all but 1 in 10^8 particles?

For the levels of heat claimed in LENR the lack of detectable radiation is the elephant in the room. WL does not offer a real get-out.

Their comment is below.
Question 3 - Why aren't large quantities of "hard" gamma/X-ray radiation seen in LENR experiments that have also produced substantial amounts of excess heat and/or nuclear transmutations? It is widely appreciated that the anomalously large excess heat and/or transmutations observed in LENR experiments cannot be explained by a chemical process without invoking nuclear reactions. However, typical nuclear processes such as fission or fusion would be expected to emit copious, lethal doses of energetic X- and gamma rays during experiments. So, why aren't all the many LENR experimentalists dead from hard radiation poisoning?

Widom and Larsen answer - The expected gamma rays are in fact produced when ultra low momentum neutrons are locally absorbed by nuclei in LENR systems. However, surface electrons bathed in "soft" low energy radiation also have the unique ability to quickly and efficiently absorb "hard" gamma rays and convert the gammas' energy into other "soft" radiation --- that is, mostly into the form of many more soft infrared photons (heat). Thus, in LENR systems, hard gamma ray photons in the energy range between 0.5 MeV and 10.0 MeV are locally absorbed and converted directly into heat. Importantly, in the relatively rare cases in which gamma radiation has been detected experimentally in LENR systems, the observed quantities of hard radiation are relatively small (not biologically significant) with energies that are strongly suppressed above about 0.5 MeV, exactly as predicted by our theory. So, LENR systems have intrinsic built-in gamma shielding, a remarkable property by any standard.

According to our theory, primary end-products of LENRs include stable isotopes, beta and alpha particles, "soft" electromagnetic radiation (in most LENR systems, predominantly infrared along with some barely measurable amounts of low-energy X-rays), and neutrinos. The ~1 MeV electron neutrinos, of course, radiate without any consequence into the environment.

Also according to our theory, in LENR systems, extremely neutron-rich, unstable intermediate reaction products turn into stable elements very quickly via cascades of rapid beta decays. In the case of LENRs, these very neutron-rich intermediates probably have half-lives measured in milliseconds, seconds, minutes, or at most hours --- typically not days, months, or many years. We believe that this is exactly why LENR systems do not produce large quantities of long-lived radioactive isotopes like existing commercial fission reactors; importantly, there are no known nuclear waste disposal issues with LENR systems.

Generally, X-rays, when detected, comprise small fluxes of "soft" photons. Biologically dangerous quantities of really "hard" (MeV+ energy) X- and/or gamma rays have never been observed in thousands of experiments with LENR systems over 18 years.

In our opinion, the phenomenon of LENRs is not predominantly strong interaction fusion or fission. According to our work, LENRs are mainly driven by the weak interaction. Sadly, the "cold fusion" people have doggedly pursued an incorrect D-D fusion paradigm since 1989. That problem, along with substantial misdirection of experimental work and other related "wheel spinning," is one of the many reasons why the field stagnated for so long, as noted in numerous critical comments made by outside scientists during the last Department of Energy "cold fusion" review panel back in 2004.

Enginerd
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Post by Enginerd »

tomclarke wrote:(2) What happens to the reaction products when the WL system is switched off. They must persist, and would result in detectable unshielded radiation at the end of experiments for some time.
The obvious proof that something nuclear is happening is a before and after sample of the magic nickel power, such that after being used it presents distinct changes in the elements and/or isotopes present. If Rossi wants to prove he gets power from a nuclear reaction, he should be able to show that the reaction caused nuclear changes... Show us some samples of nickel or copper or whatever with isotope ratios dramatically unlike all the naturally occurring samples on Earth, and dramatically unlike the starting sample. Radioactive samples containing isotopes with short half lives gets bonus points, but I am perfectly willing to accept purely stable isotopes that are different in type or quantity from the starting set of isotopes.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
--Philip K. Dick

tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

Enginerd wrote:
tomclarke wrote:(2) What happens to the reaction products when the WL system is switched off. They must persist, and would result in detectable unshielded radiation at the end of experiments for some time.
The obvious proof that something nuclear is happening is a before and after sample of the magic nickel power, such that after being used it presents distinct changes in the elements and/or isotopes present. If Rossi wants to prove he gets power from a nuclear reaction, he should be able to show that the reaction caused nuclear changes... Show us some samples of nickel or copper or whatever with isotope ratios dramatically unlike all the naturally occurring samples on Earth, and dramatically unlike the starting sample. Radioactive samples containing isotopes with short half lives gets bonus points, but I am perfectly willing to accept purely stable isotopes that are different in type or quantity from the starting set of isotopes.
Yes, I agree. That would equally be a signature that something was up. And equally not found in LENR exoeriments to date. (The transmutation evidence has all been exceptionally low-level and susceptible to contamination or other experimental error).

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

tomclarke wrote:
GIThruster wrote: The Rowan study was all the things the people here say they want to see, and yet, they ignore this and pretend there's nothing there. It must be obvious to you, that given the Rowan study was open science for 2 years, and anyone who wished could go to Rowan and see for themselves what was being done, that these same sorts of objections people raise will be raised no matter who does the testing.
OK. Lets see. I've been unhappy with the Rowan studies for the following reasons. Now, maybe, you think oakthicket is an internet critic lying through his teeth? Perhaps we could check these points from source material one by one? If true, Rowan looks so far from independent as to be worthless.
oakthicket wrote: This 'announcement' by BLP is more of their usual crap. I know more about their idiotic claims than I care to and can bore you to death with the details.

Quick summary.

* Rowan University is not a leading university. It is one of only three American universities/colleges that has an undergrad chemical engineering program but no graduate program. In independent university rankings, it is tied for last in chemical engineering.

* Mills is playing it cute in that this announcement barely mentions his old buddy, Peter Jansson, who heads up the Rowan University chemical engineering department. I publicly outed the long term relationship between Mills and Jansson. They date back about ten years ago when Jansson single-handedly approved millions in grants to BLP when he was an executive at Connectiv, an electric utility. Connectiv was not impressed, fired Jansson who then remade his career by switching to academia. Any Rowan University study is NOT independent third party validation. Mills remembers his friends, and Jansson is a bosom buddy.

* A handful of folks, including myself, outed the first Rowan University validation study. They claimed unexplained excess heat generation attributed to hydrinos. They didn't consider the exothermic nature of the Nickel-Raney catalyst used in their tests. They were so embarrassed that the study was removed from public view and is not to be found today.

* BLP has been touting their 'hydrinos' for twenty years. There has been no, none, zero, nada confirmation of hydrino existence by anyone other than Mills. Yes, that includes Rowan University. The only claims are dubious spectrographic tests. There are numerous chemical tests that could be done with hydrinos (simply a lower energy level state of ordinary hydrogen), but none have ever been done.

* The Gen3 founder and owner is a BLP board member. Their 'validation' study has never been made public.

* Akridge is a real estate company. Owner, John Akridge, is a long-time personal friend of Randall Mills. He is also a major investor in Blacklight Power.

* Blacklight Power was highlighted in a book entitled Voodoo Science: The Road From Foolishness to Fraud by Robert Park.

I could say a whole lot more. BLP issues these announcements once or twice a year and sucks in a new batch of folks who are impressed by press reports.
I've never heard of this oakthicket before but he's obviously the worst kind of blogger--the sort who makes libelous charges against people he doesn't know. Without checking I can say he's wrong on several counts:

--Rowan's engineering ranking is very high, 6th out of 118 US engneering schools at present. Misreporting on this sort of issue in order to cast doubt on the abilities of those involved is pretty scandalous behavior. Seems Oak not only wants to liable BLP but Rowan as well.

--Mills and Jannsen are acquaintances, not buddies. Yes indeed, Jannsen has had an interest in BLP for many years. He did a NIAC study on BLP back in 2002.

--Jannsen was not fired from Connective. He left to do his PhD at Cambridge and afterward returned to Cambridge as a teaching Fellow. This is obviously not the sort of thing would have happened had he been fired from Connective. All by itself, this charge is actionable in court.

--Everyone at Rowan (and everywhere else in the world) was completely aware of the exothermic Nickel-Raney reaction many years before the BPL colorimetry test were done. The test reports are still posted publicly by the University including the statements by all the Rowan profs and grad students that the energy observed cannot be accounted for by any chemical reaction.

--After Gen3 did their study of BLP, one of their board decided to join BLP. What's wrong with that?

And just saying, when you decide to argue that the Rowan report is not authentically "third party" then what you're doing is saying the people at Rowan are lying. That argument makes no sense. None of these people involved would throw away their careers for a lie.

Oak is just another example of irresponsible criticism on the web. He's a blogger, not someone writing in a responsible peer review journal.

I have no respect for people who are willing to fabricate libelous charges against others so they can posture online and pretend they were right when they were lying. You Tom, should know better than to accept such complaints against a fellow Cambridge Fellow.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

GIThruster wrote:
tomclarke wrote:Of course it does matter who does the experiments, as you know. NASA was doing some LENR investigation. If they claim experimenbtal validation I'd take it seriously, so would others.
IIRC, NASA has precisely 2 engineers working on the WLT, Joseph Zawodny and senior scientist Dennis Bushnell. Dennis is busy with many issues so I think this leaves Zawodny the only full time investigator, and IIUC, his investigations are theoretical--they're not building any hardware I know of. So don't look to NASA for empirical study/validation.
I stand corrected. Dennis tell me that Joe is running full parametric tests/studies. Seems we will get some answers.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

ScottL
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Post by ScottL »

--Rowan's engineering ranking is very high, 6th out of 118 US engneering schools at present. Misreporting on this sort of issue in order to cast doubt on the abilities of those involved is pretty scandalous behavior. Seems Oak not only wants to liable BLP but Rowan as well.
They were 22nd in Chemical Engineering for colleges without a doctoral program in 2011. They have sense been ranked 3rd in the same category mind you this is in the "North Region" meaning the New England states only. They aren't on the list in an overall ranking of Chem E. programs as the list only shows the top 500.

RobL
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Post by RobL »

tomclarke wrote:RobL (or anyone else) am I mising something here? I can't work out why parallel is saying these weird things? I thought maybe he is using accuracy in a non-technical sense (accuracy of measurement rather than accuracy of equipment) and considering cases of differential measurement. Then resolution would be significant. But the case here is absolute measuement at high temps, where (equipment) accuracy is the only relevant parameter.
Yep, that's right. But I find it's seldom of any benefit arguing on a technical forum with someone who's ego is bruised, even if they were wrong or missed the point. Better to ignore it (so long as it is infrequent) and keep the atmosphere friendly, we come here for the company after all.
Last edited by RobL on Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

Doesn't really matter, does it? The implication is that the PhD chemists who signed off on the tests were incompetent and they weren't. The explicit charge was they didn't know about Nickel Raney reactions and they did. The accusation against them was they were incompetent and later pulled their test results off the web which is complete fabrication.

Rowan received $100 million in funding specifically to make it a world-class engineering school and they're well on their way. That's one of the reasons why Governor Christi intends to merge them with Rutgers--because Rowan has earned its place as a top quality science and technology school, and merging it with Rutgers 5 campuses will greatly reduce administrative fees for the university system.

The main point however is these are all libelous charges and the people who make them, and those who repeat them without checking the facts, are morally deficient people whom we all ought to ignore.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

GIThruster wrote:
GIThruster wrote:
tomclarke wrote:Of course it does matter who does the experiments, as you know. NASA was doing some LENR investigation. If they claim experimental validation I'd take it seriously, so would others.
IIRC, NASA has precisely 2 engineers working on the WLT, Joseph Zawodny and senior scientist Dennis Bushnell. Dennis is busy with many issues so I think this leaves Zawodny the only full time investigator, and IIUC, his investigations are theoretical--they're not building any hardware I know of. So don't look to NASA for empirical study/validation.
I stand corrected. Dennis tell me that Joe is running full parametric tests/studies. Seems we will get some answers.
Well, if we get some useful information from a decent lab with people looking to determine whether or not something starnge exists, rather than looking to find LENR, it would be good.

I looked at two (chosen for the validator sounding good) "validations" on BLPs web site. Not all, and you had better tell me which you think most convincing, I'll look again. I could not find the Rowan study.

But these validations were interesting. As accounts of an experiment they were appalling - not just bad.

(1) The validators spend half of the paper describing hydrino theory. It wastes space and also shows bad judgement, since it is clear to any physicist that hydrino theory is rubbish. It has extraordinary internal inconsustencies, as well as extraordinary incompatibility with the (incredibly well validated) QED.

(2) The results are just not presented. For example, one of them gives the excess power generated without any other information - current, voltage, power density, input power (is this a charge/discharge type system or is it power out with no input?). Another gives the perentage excess power out without giving power in or any other details.

This type of "validation" is essentially an appeal to authority. "We are good scientists, we think BLP has it, trust us!".

That is the opposite of science. In publication you first run the gauntlet of having obvious mistakes and ommissions picked up by referees, then your published paper sits there for others to knock down, replicate, etc. The paper must be extremely detailed and clear, or it is not worth much. When you read a published paper you don't think: "Is this guy famous?", the quality of the paper is apparent from the way it is written. In this case the quality of the paper is so bad it would not get into a decent (peer reviewed full paper) conference, let alone a journal.

Best wishes, Tom

tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

They date back about ten years ago when Jansson single-handedly approved millions in grants to BLP when he was an executive at Connectiv, an electric utility. Connectiv was not impressed, fired Jansson who then remade his career by switching to academia. Any Rowan University study is NOT independent third party validation. Mills remembers his friends, and Jansson is a bosom buddy.
This can be checked. I remember there was a utility gave BLP lots of money. It would perhaps be difficult to determine whether he was fired or left voluntarily. But what it does do is establish a very strong link between Jansson and BLP - not just a slight connection.

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

tomclarke wrote:I could not find the Rowan study.
You didn't look. If you had you would never have posted the disinformation and slander that you did. This is the first hit from the first search I did. The claim made by oak that this report was removed is obviously not true.

http://www.rowan.edu/colleges/engineeri ... paper7.pdf

Likewise, enough with the whining, Tom. The validation reports don't claim to be peer review journal reports. They are reports written by hired guns for investors that are indeed meant to provide expert testimony on the subject, not create a repeatable result. Whining that A is not B is childish and ridiculous, and is not the subject of your previous slander.

The fact Peter Jannsen worked for Connective and had a part in Connective's grants to BLP between when he went to MIT and Cambridge is not a reason to slander him as impartial. For more than 2 years, the BLP reactor was up and running at Rowan, and there was an open invite for anyone to come looks see what they were doing. Those who ignored that opportunity do not now get to whine and complain that they can't access the experimental apparatus.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

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