What would happen if an energy storage device failed?

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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Joseph Chikva
Posts: 2039
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:30 am

Post by Joseph Chikva »

KitemanSA wrote:
Joseph Chikva wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:Ok, we are down to ~7.2ktonnes of HE.
Which also corresponds to 1kt of butter.
maybe if disolved into 6.2ktonnes of saltpeter! ;)
So, are you not agree that by energy content 10t TNT is equivalently to 1.4t butter?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitroto ... gy_content
Energy content
See also: TNT equivalent
TNT contains 4.184 megajoules per kilogram. The energy density of TNT is used as a reference-point for many other types of explosives, including nuclear weapons, the energy content of which is measured in kilotons (~4.184 terajoules) or megatons (~4.184 petajoules) of TNT equivalent.

For comparison, gunpowder contains 3 megajoules per kilogram, dynamite contains 7.5 megajoules per kilogram, gasoline contains 47.2 megajoules per kilogram (though gasoline requires an oxidant, so an optimized gasoline and O2 mixture contains 10.4 megajoules per kilogram), and butter contains 30 megajoules per kilogram (also requiring an external oxidizing agent).

KitemanSA
Posts: 6179
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA

Post by KitemanSA »

Joseph Chikva wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:
Joseph Chikva wrote:Which also corresponds to 1kt of butter.
maybe if disolved into 6.2ktonnes of saltpeter! ;)
So, are you not agree that by energy content 10t TNT is equivalently to 1.4t butter?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitroto ... gy_content
Energy content
See also: TNT equivalent
TNT contains 4.184 megajoules per kilogram. The energy density of TNT is used as a reference-point for many other types of explosives, including nuclear weapons, the energy content of which is measured in kilotons (~4.184 terajoules) or megatons (~4.184 petajoules) of TNT equivalent.

For comparison, gunpowder contains 3 megajoules per kilogram, dynamite contains 7.5 megajoules per kilogram, gasoline contains 47.2 megajoules per kilogram (though gasoline requires an oxidant, so an optimized gasoline and O2 mixture contains 10.4 megajoules per kilogram), and butter contains 30 megajoules per kilogram (also requiring an external oxidizing agent).
Hey Joe,

KEEP UP!
I never stated nor even suggested that the energy contents weren't similar. I didn't add energy content, I added oxidizer, which is what roughly makes up the difference in weight between the 1 ktonnes of butter and the 7.2 ktonnes of HE.

Butter + external oxidizer = burn / sizzle.
Butter + properly included internal oxidizer = explode / kaboom!

Have a nice day.

Joseph Chikva
Posts: 2039
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:30 am

Post by Joseph Chikva »

KitemanSA wrote:Butter + external oxidizer = burn / sizzle.
Butter + properly included internal oxidizer = explode / kaboom!
I like this.
As I see that you are agree that only in case of properly selected oxidizer butter can explode. I am not sure but may be saltpeter. Sure on liquid fluorine, oxygen, etc. But even air is not "properly oxidizer".
What do you think, magnets designer not take into account potential threats? Or “properly design” is the design providing kaboom capability? Don't worry and have a nice day too.

D Tibbets
Posts: 2775
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:52 am

Post by D Tibbets »

The idea that energy is distributed globally is only viable in very carefully controlled situations. On the surface you might think that a Z- pinch is an example of this. The entire wire is rapidly and evenly heated. But, even that is not looking at the entire system. The thin wires heat quickly, but the thicker feed cables have much less resistance so they do not heat up hardly at all. A good comparison may be a spot wielder. The heavy copper rods conduct the electricity with little heating. This can be considered like the superconducting loop. Only at the point ehre the current is shorted through a much higher resistive point does the contained energy result/ concentrate int a hot spot. This would be similar to a superconducting loop had a coolant failure- the liquid helium is draining, the exposed portion of the loop warms enough that it quenches- Suddenly this portion is heated to very high temperatures. This would spread to adjacent portions but due to the thermal mass, and the speed of electrons in the loop, the energy would be expended locally before the heating could transported to more distant regions. Just like a spot wielder, except a whole lot more energy is released. Explosive fragments and vapors creates a blast wave, any nearby highly volital fluid like helium could reinforce, or at least prolong the blast pressure.

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

Joseph Chikva
Posts: 2039
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:30 am

Post by Joseph Chikva »

D Tibbets wrote:The idea that energy is distributed globally is only viable in very carefully controlled situations. On the surface you might think that a Z- pinch is an example of this. The entire wire is rapidly and evenly heated. But, even that is not looking at the entire system. The thin wires heat quickly, but the thicker feed cables have much less resistance so they do not heat up hardly at all. A good comparison may be a spot wielder. The heavy copper rods conduct the electricity with little heating. This can be considered like the superconducting loop. Only at the point ehre the current is shorted through a much higher resistive point does the contained energy result/ concentrate int a hot spot. This would be similar to a superconducting loop had a coolant failure- the liquid helium is draining, the exposed portion of the loop warms enough that it quenches- Suddenly this portion is heated to very high temperatures. This would spread to adjacent portions but due to the thermal mass, and the speed of electrons in the loop, the energy would be expended locally before the heating could transported to more distant regions. Just like a spot wielder, except a whole lot more energy is released. Explosive fragments and vapors creates a blast wave, any nearby highly volital fluid like helium could reinforce, or at least prolong the blast pressure.

Dan Tibbets
Dan,
The single correct assertion here is not quite not uniform heating at the beginning of transient process due the skin effect in the copper matrix (stabilizer/current bypass). The rest e.g. mythical "controlled situations" (control impossible and shape of self-induction pulse is dependent only on parameters new-born circuit: inductance, capacitance and resistivity). Also it seems to me that you are attemtinting to justify the wrong statement of Dr. Bussard used by him only for introduction before more important for him part of his paper begins - description of magnetic field system of his fusion concept. As normal running superconducting cable consists of two connected parallelly conductors: superconductor with normally zero resistivity and well conductive but havinf low but non zero resistance matrix. Mission of a matrix is in the following: in case of stop of superconductivity condition to bypass current and to dissipate the stored energy. For tens thousands amperes resistivity of matrix is not low. As heat power released in conductor I^2*R
Current 52000 A (projected current in ITER’s coil in case of superconductivity condition failure) and even 0.01 Ohm resistivity (my assumption) give the Ohmic power 270MW. Enough for dissipation 2.3GJ of energy in 8.4 s. And for 0.1 Ohm in 0.84 s.
And unlike you I at least am saying where are objective facts and where are my assumptions.
You are only repeating the words of Dr. Bussard adding and exaggerating.
Kiteman and I am sure others too in the exaggeration have reached mythical 14 kilotons TNT equivalent.
Explosive fragments and vapors creates a blast wave,...
Fragments (solids) can not creat shock wave
I have showed here that in case of 10t HE explosive exlosion in 6 m^3 of volume the 7000 m^3 of gas is stored. And that is the source of shock wave and nothing else. And that gas drives then fragments.

GIThruster
Posts: 4686
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Post by GIThruster »

Joseph Chikva wrote:
GIThruster wrote:The magnets they've been describing with these enormous fields the last few years are "hybrid" magnets that are 50T from YBCO tape + another 40T from copper that has been surrounded by a "corset" that thwarts explosive decomposition. Still, these are short pulses only.
Wrong. At least 36.2T Bitter magnet is long running.
The Bitter magnet uses a geometry that makes it highly impractical for all but small cylindrical volumes. The field is only high as you're quoting, inside the magnet. This configuration cannot be used for making coils, etc.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Joseph Chikva
Posts: 2039
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:30 am

Post by Joseph Chikva »

GIThruster wrote:The Bitter magnet uses a geometry that makes it highly impractical for all but small cylindrical volumes. The field is only high as you're quoting, inside the magnet. This configuration cannot be used for making coils, etc.
Ok, 13T for ignitor TOKAMAK http://www.frascati.enea.it/ignitor/def ... gnitor.htm , , 20T for Ignitex TOKAMAK http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_ ... ber=110529 , some projects of high field TOKAMAKs of Massachusetts Institute of Technology etc. These fields are unattainable for superconductors.
And Bitter plates are coils too.
And there is not problem to make bigger inner diameter. Limitation is only in the strength of material. 40T corresponds to about 6400 bar (636MPa)of magnetic pressure and after this number pure copper suffers plastic (non-elastic) deformation (tensile strength limitation).

Added: http://fire.pppl.gov/bpx_longpulse_cu_mit.pdf
C-1 project: B=7.8T mass of coils 2400 t
C-2 project: B=7.4T mass of coils 3300 t
C-3 project: B=7.4T mass of coils 4700 t
C-4 project: B=8.7T mass of coils 1800 t
For note: ITER's field near coil is about 17 T while on axis field 5.7T
Which superconductor allows the field higher than 25T near wire?

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