Scientific Irrationalism: Origins of a post-modern cult

[MSimon]

The West has mostly given up on the "Holy" books. The East - still being in thrall to ignorance has not. These things take time and numerous wars to sort out.

[303]

pro-theist agnostic ? i agree that religion can play a useful function in society, but those same functions can equally be done without it, and can be argued is morally better to do it without the clutter


i've no idea what history was like , im guessing fairly shit with basic healthcare/survival being more of an immediate concern than being sacrificed. Im also fairly certain these practises wouldve been phased out , after all we are no longer burning witches at the stake.

[choff]

One thing I noticed was the story of Lot and his daughters incest was taken out of context. According to tradition(I read this long ago) the Israelites used the story of the incest to slag the neighbouring Moabites and Ammonites as being the offspring of incest between father and daughter. They certainly didn't condone it.

One other thing about Islam, there is a prophecy of the sword that is supposed to abrogate all the more peaceful prophecies before it(something else I read a while back, don't know if it's true or not).

As for NT, there was a lively debate about what books to put in and what to leave out. From the looks of it they kept the ones written by people who knew Jesus or were close with the apostles, where they could assure the veracity of the account.

Left out were books written by other cults trying to insinulate themselves into the church or obvious fiction. Other books left out were later works which while not bad sunday sermons, weren't directly connected to the original players. The book of Revelation seems out of place with the rest of the NT, but probably was included because they had to have an ending.

I don't trust any of the books found in 1947 in Egypt that are supposed to be Greek copies of Ethiopian books written in 700 A.D., the writing style is too much like Alistear Crowley.

[choff]

One of the stories I read about the IRA is that British intel was actually running the top people, ordering them to do attacks they were refusing out of moral revulsion. Apparently some of the people who were involved have been knocked off before they could go public.

[tomclarke]

So I guess the examples below (all sanctioned by the Judeo-Christian OT Yahweh) are not rape?

I'm not excusing The Qu'ran, which has its moments too. However enlightended Biblical or Qu'ranic scholars will interpret all the nasty passages and what emerges in both cases is sweetness and light. On the other hand, anyone looking for scriptural support for rape has plenty to choose from. Those were not easy times for women.

Genesis 19:4
But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.” 6 Lot went out to the men at the entrance, shut the door after him, 7 and said, “I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly. 8 Behold, I have two daughters who have not known any man. Let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please. Only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof.” Though not in the end taken up the point is that Yahweh approves of this attempted bargain by Lot and rewards him for it

Uh yeah, Homosexual rape. Those were the bad guys, in case you missed it.

In this case the people under Lot's roof were angels in disguise, the populace outside were indeed bad guys, but their behaviour with Lot's daughter would be likely clasified as hetero rape, don't you think? For what they wanted the Angels, rape or violence, I don't know, but it makes no difference to the appalling nature of Lot's actions, for which nevertheless he is rewarded by the Lord.

The Sodomites were represented in the OT as sexually depraved, and not restricted in sexual orietation. Indeed sodomy is not an act exclusive to homosexual relations.

I think the moral is that in the culture at the time behaving honourably towards guests was considered more important than the dishonour (and material loss) of having ones daughters dishonoured. It makes an equation of family honour which just leaves out the appalling treatment of the women.

Here however is a serious Jewish commentary on Lot & his daughters, focussing mostly on the later incest but including the Sodomite offer:
http://www.jhsonline.org/Articles/article_160.pdf

I'm surprised you didn't include the part about Lot having sex with and impregnating his daughters. Drinking too!There is also the part where the Daughters of the remaining tribes of Israel were sent into the Vineyards to gather grapes, with the intent that they would be grabbed and carted off by the remaining survivors of the Tribe of Benjamin. (The Tribe of Benjamin was nearly wiped out because of Homosexuals.)

I believe there is a case where people were eating babiesin there somewhere as well.

Yes I included the Lot incest part, under my post on incest, not rape. GIT reckons that is Ok because it is history, not recommendation. But my reading from context is that it was presented positively (Lot was a good and just man, and his seed would otherwise not continue - whoops, what about the daughters? Um, women don't count.

Meh. All of that stuff is from the Old Testament. Do you have any examples from the New Testament? You know, the part of the bible that is explicitly Christian? My recollection is that that Jesus Chap is pretty non violent. When one of his followers cut off a Roman Soldier's ear, Jesus picked it up and put it back on.

Yes, Jesus was a good moral example. There are a few violent quotes, behaviour in the temple, a few other statements, but in context they do not destroy a very non-violent message.

Unfortunately Revelations is equally part of the NT Holy Scripture and for 50% of americans or more it seems to be regarded as literally true, which is not so nice. See my quotes above.

The problem is that once you have Holy books that must be literally true you can't pick and choose. Revelations + OT has been enough through the centuries to justify any violence you like. But of course even the "nice" NT books have a few passages which out of context can be used to justify nastiness.

[tomclarke]

The West has mostly given up on the "Holy" books. The East - still being in thrall to ignorance has not. These things take time and numerous wars to sort out.

I agree that is true of Europe. But the Bible has an unhealthy hold still on US thinking - look at the leverage of creationists in the legislature, or the polls. Amazingly, many US citizens believe the Bible to be literally true who are not actually Christians! I guess it is lack of textual analysis that does it.

Perhaps a few more US wars will help. The "uniquely evil religion" approach to Iran has possibilities. Europe has historically been favoured by geography with copious wars for no better reason than princes seeking power, but the EU puts a dampener on these things.

[MSimon]

The West has mostly given up on the "Holy" books. The East - still being in thrall to ignorance has not. These things take time and numerous wars to sort out.

I agree that is true of Europe. But the Bible has an unhealthy hold still on US thinking - look at the leverage of creationists in the legislature, or the polls. Amazingly, many US citizens believe the Bible to be literally true who are not actually Christians! I guess it is lack of textual analysis that does it.

Perhaps a few more US wars will help. The "uniquely evil religion" approach to Iran has possibilities. Europe has historically been favoured by geography with copious wars for no better reason than princes seeking power, but the EU puts a dampener on these things.

The next generation is not so in thrall. Religious observance is falling off as is support for the "crusades" i.e. The Drug War - Homo Persecution etc. Not only on the left but on the right as well.

Diogenes is an anachronism at worst or an aging fossil at best. And he still hasn't explained why opiates - freely available in America until 1914 caused minimal problems in the 1800s while in the same period China had quite a bit of trouble.

Maybe Liberty minimizes the need for chemical escape. Just a theory.

[MSimon]

Sodomy is a perversion of the text. The sin of the Sodomites was unkindness to strangers. That would make the vast majority of Christians here in America sodomites. Of course since they use the government as a cut out they deny all responsibility. Clever those Christians.

The Most Dangerous Addiction

[tomclarke]

The West has mostly given up on the "Holy" books. The East - still being in thrall to ignorance has not. These things take time and numerous wars to sort out.

I agree that is true of Europe. But the Bible has an unhealthy hold still on US thinking - look at the leverage of creationists in the legislature, or the polls. Amazingly, many US citizens believe the Bible to be literally true who are not actually Christians! I guess it is lack of textual analysis that does it.

Perhaps a few more US wars will help. The "uniquely evil religion" approach to Iran has possibilities. Europe has historically been favoured by geography with copious wars for no better reason than princes seeking power, but the EU puts a dampener on these things.

The next generation is not so in thrall. Religious observance is falling off as is support for the "crusades" i.e. The Drug War - Homo Persecution etc. Not only on the left but on the right as well.

Diogenes is an anachronism at worst or an aging fossil at best. And he still hasn't explained why opiates - freely available in America until 1914 caused minimal problems in the 1800s while in the same period China had quite a bit of trouble.

Maybe Liberty minimizes the need for chemical escape. Just a theory.

I hope you are right, but are you sure there will be no crusade against Iran? It might be popular...

GIT's idea that Islam is a "uniquely evil religion" has some traction. Iran's political and geopolitical situation makes it a good candidate for "evil Empire" status, and Star Wars has an eduring mythic status in the US psyche.

[tomclarke]

Sodomy is a perversion of the text. The sin of the Sodomites was unkindness to strangers. That would make the vast majority of Christians here in America sodomites. Of course since they use the government as a cut out they deny all responsibility. Clever those Christians.

The Most Dangerous Addiction

I think giving one's daughters away for a night's pleasure takes kindness to strangers a bit far, don't you?

[MSimon]

Sodomy is a perversion of the text. The sin of the Sodomites was unkindness to strangers. That would make the vast majority of Christians here in America sodomites. Of course since they use the government as a cut out they deny all responsibility. Clever those Christians.

The Most Dangerous Addiction

I think giving one's daughters away for a night's pleasure takes kindness to strangers a bit far, don't you?

Uh. He was doing it to protect the strangers from the local mob. Did the locals have death in mind for the strangers? Lesser evil and all that. But I wasn't there.

[Diogenes]

It bothers me not at all that people kill abortionists and their ilk. Were I to sit on a Jury I would vote to acquit. I am of the John Brown philosophy regarding these people. Just because the law says it's legal, doesn't make it right.

Abortionists forfeit their "right to life" in my opinion.

Wow! Just wow!
You dont seem to regard christian values very highly either, hu? You know about the whole forgiving and not killing part...

Not at all. I believe in Violence. I believe Violence solves many problems, and ought to be used when it is necessary. In this regard I am an adherent to Machiavelli's philosophy.

I also feel that society is better off when violence is discouraged, and a non-violent society is a desired outcome. Strategically - Non Violent. Tactically - Violent.

As George Will is fond of pointing out, the first responsibility of any Government is to acquire and maintain a monopoly on the use of Violence.

Pax Vehemens.

[JoeStrout]

I'm closing this thread. It's not news, nor does it have much of anything to do with polywell fusion.

If you want to continue discussing the pros and cons of various religions (or non-religion), I'd prefer you find another forum entirely. This sort of thing can be pure poison to a community such as ours.

Thank you,
- Joe