In Pursuit of Ignition on the National Ignition Facility

[jcoady]

Here is a link to a talk given yesterday at PPPL about latest progress at NIF.

http://www.pppl.gov/events/colloquium-p ... n-facility

[Skipjack]

Oh, spare me the goddamn NIF. More public relations humbug from this money dump!

[asdfuogh]

On the bright side, at least it helps with laser technology development and research..

[Skipjack]

I would rather see the money got real fusion reactor research like Helion, LPP, Polywell, etc.

[asdfuogh]

NIF is no less "real" than Polywell, Helion, etc. Let's not devolve into the same bickering types that argue over funding because let's face it, that's not going to go through well. We should try to be glad for its success (in funding, and matching the current simulations) instead of trying to circlejerk over how much of a martyr Polywell is.

In any case, laser based plasma technology (ie. wakefield accelerators) are closer to having real world applications than fusion reactors at the moment, not necessarily because it's got better researchers, but it appeals to the funding sources more readily.

[Skipjack]

NIF and its derivates will NEVER lead to economic fusion reactors. And their success is completely virtual anyway, a total numbers game. If we play numbers games, then JT 60 beat them years ago.
NIF is device for nuclear weapons research. That is all it can do and ever will. Everything else is just PR to distract the public from the fact that this is nothing but a giant waste of taxpayer money.

[asdfuogh]

Yes, the tokamaks beat them a long time ago.. that's why most funding goes into the tokamak route.

>NIF is device for nuclear weapons research. That is all it can do and ever will. Everything else is just PR to distract the public from the fact that this is nothing but a giant waste of taxpayer money.

Yes, and that's where most of their funding comes from. Let's sound like mature adults instead of teenagers frothing at the mouth. The world is not so simple that funding just comes pouring when you scream for it. You have to make a case for it (ie. some other groups have shown success and potential), you have to make a case for its side benefits (ie. nuclear testing as you said), etc.

That said, even the need for the intense NIF lasers can maybe make up for the amount of money thrown at this project. There are lots of uses that can come from intense lasers, including tunable x-rays from laser compton scattering, more compact electron accelerators, and possibly compact proton accelerators as well.

You may complain that NIF's funding is not representative of its fusion purpose. That is true. That's why its funding doesn't really conflict with the tokamak funding. However, your incessant whining about nothing coming from this is more ignorant than optimal for this forum.

[Skipjack]

Those lasers are equally useless. There are other lasers that will replace them. There is a laser fusion concept from france that is a lot more promising. NIF is an expensive waste of government money. It does not bring mankind forward in any way. It should have been cancelled a long time ago.

[asdfuogh]

Yes, there are upcoming lasers that boast similar intensity and better repetition rates, but there had to be steps before then.

You know, now that I think about it, I think this is why I stopped visiting this forum previously. It's quite hypocritical to spout ignorant statements while whining about having to beg for funding. The lack of intellectual discourse is wearing thin, and the contributions here are often not much better than what I can find in a public restroom.

All the best.

[Skipjack]

Yes, there are upcoming lasers that boast similar intensity and better repetition rates, but there had to be steps before then.

You know, now that I think about it, I think this is why I stopped visiting this forum previously. It's quite hypocritical to spout ignorant statements while whining about having to beg for funding. The lack of intellectual discourse is wearing thin, and the contributions here are often not much better than what I can find in a public restroom.

All the best.

I did not just talk about Polywell, but all the other concepts that are starved for funding. E.g. James Grossnickles FRC lab was closed at the UW because of lack of funding. Instead the least useful of them all gets billions.

[crowberry]

I think the real issue is the total fusion funding which is not at a level it should be in terms of the potential benefits. This has lead to the closure of some interesting projects and some current projects have difficulties in getting funding at all. NIF is partly funded by DOD and not DOE, so it is mostly not competing for the same funding as the other projects. Advance in science can not be predicted, so the usefulness of the NIF research can only be judged later. But when NIF is making scientific progress then it means that plasma physics as a whole advances and this is the important thing. I don't approve of the real purpose of NIF to study nuclear weapons, however.
For those who want to study the history of decisions for fusion funding I recommend the book by Stephen O. Dean viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4614

[Skipjack]

NIF is partly funded by DOD and not DOE, so it is mostly not competing for the same funding as the other projects.

I think it is funded by the DOE and not the DOD.

Advance in science can not be predicted, so the usefulness of the NIF research can only be judged later. But when NIF is making scientific progress then it means that plasma physics as a whole advances and this is the important thing.

I disagree, there are other fusion concepts that have and could produce the same results for less. In fact, I have seen no indication that the results achieved with NIF are in any way unique, or advancing the state of the art in plasma science or nuclear fusion.

[ladajo]

Skip, your incessant anti-NIF blathering is fine if you had a real reason for it. You don't really.

Personally, I prefer to test nuclear weapons the NIF way, vice popping them off for real. That in itself makes it worth it.
And if you don't think nuclear weapons testing is important, then you are begging for being labelled niave and an uninformed idealist.

[Skipjack]

Skip, your incessant anti-NIF blathering is fine if you had a real reason for it. You don't really.

Personally, I prefer to test nuclear weapons the NIF way, vice popping them off for real. That in itself makes it worth it.
And if you don't think nuclear weapons testing is important, then you are begging for being labelled niave and an uninformed idealist.

I think solving the energy problem is more important for national security that nuclear weapons testing. The Russians are doing fine without it.

[paperburn1]

March 2014
The country's defense ministry said an Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM), which has a minimum range of more than 3,400 miles, was launched.
The missile is primarily designed for nuclear weapons delivery and it was fired at Russia's Kapustin Yar test range east of the Ukrainian border.
Sounds like the Russians are still actively involved in "Testing"

What the US has spent on the war could have resulted in energy independence for the USA. But our politicians vote otherwise. I would love to see more money spent on energy projects,as a mater of fact I consider it a block to keep our civilization functioning. But they do not so we must live in the world as provided until we can change it for the better.