LENR Is Real

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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paperburn1
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by paperburn1 »

Makes me want to run up there and take another look, there is a steakhouse up there across highway 70. angus steaks. :D
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

kunkmiester
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by kunkmiester »

Anything worth a layman reading on characterizing reactions? I'd be surprised if someone hasn't done the math yet. Particles in a tokomak, I can ask what one is doing and I can learn at length what it's doing and the extent of how and why we can't know everything, etc.

Energy needed to get a particle to pull into metal matrices of various spacing and metals, how the electrostatic (or whatever)and coloumb forces actually balance in the matrix(especially metal-hydrogen , etc. I've seen a few articles talking about how mainstream science doesn't see it as possible, but little on the actual process and crunched numbers.
Evil is evil, no matter how small

JoeP
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by JoeP »

LENR or the all the Rossi obfuscated scam-electric-heater-what-ever-thing(s)?

One problem with LENR is that there are a lot of theories, but not anything solid. However, there was a nice overview of Widom-Larsen Theory on the net I remember reading. I just tried to find that link again, but could not find it again. I recall it was a nice summary. That said, there is a lot of stuff on this over at newenergytimes.

ScottL
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by ScottL »

paperburn1 wrote:Makes me want to run up there and take another look, there is a steakhouse up there across highway 70. angus steaks. :D
If you do, make sure to take plenty of pictures for...you know...science....oh who am I kidding, for the laughs!

ladajo
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by ladajo »

Further posting from Dewey Weaver indicates the 1MW in NC was stripped of cells by Rossi to build the Doral unit. It is now an in effect shell.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

kunkmiester
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by kunkmiester »

If he was really mamufacturimg, there would be little need to strip it.

Widom- Larson looks interesting, I believe the other prevailing theory was Bussard's, of having hydrogen- metal fusion occurring in the crystal matrix.
Evil is evil, no matter how small

JoeP
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by JoeP »

ladajo wrote:Further posting from Dewey Weaver indicates the 1MW in NC was stripped of cells by Rossi to build the Doral unit. It is now an in effect shell.
Where is this guy posting -- I'd like to read his comments. BTW, was not the original 1MW plant composed of 100x10KW units? I thought the later version had just 4x250KW modules, with a 5th as a backup.

ladajo
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by ladajo »

The unit in the picture is the one Rossiclown had claimed to sell multiple times, and in the end sold to IH and shipped from Italy to North Carolina. He then used parts and "E-cats" from it to build the follow-on unit for Doral. He ended up with the Tiger-Cat unit, and some 50 or so "E-Cats" in another container as the "back-up" for Doral.
Great point raised about the conflict between his claims to be manufacturing multiple units in perpetuity, verses his stripping of the Italy unit to build US units.

Weaver, who is an IH investor, has been posting off and on at LENR Forum. When they get a good nugget over there, I try to share it here. I do not post there. They have also used some of our stuff from here, over there.

https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/?mode=latestPosts

There is also this site, which posts a lot on the Rossiclown court case. The writer used to post at LENR Forum, however got into a tiff with the management (or lack there of), and started his own site not long ago:

http://coldfusioncommunity.net/

I read the court docs, then bounce what I think off of what he thinks. Sometimes we align, sometimes not.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

pbelter
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by pbelter »

Industrial Heat says they were pursuing 12 leads on LENR, they gave up on 6 including Rossi but continue to pursue remaining 6
Darden says he’s moved on to other possibilities when it comes to LENR technologies. Rossi’s research was just one of a dozen avenues Industrial Heat was exploring. Of those 12, Industrial Heat has halted or slowed funding on about half, he says, adding that the management team feels “increasingly good” about the remaining avenues. “Our triaging process is working pretty well to figure out which ones we want to continue to support and which ones we don’t.”

In the meantime, work continues on about six projects, scattered across multiple continents.
http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/new ... ssion.html

ladajo
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by ladajo »

Small update...
It appears, for now, that IH has roped Fabiani, Johnson, and Bass back into the fray. No ruling yet saying otherwise.

More interesting, as depositions continue in discovery, it has come to light that IH had Boeing do an independent testing of Rossiclown E-cat(s?) and found that they did nothing. This came out, probably unintentionally on Rossiclown's part, as he tried to have the Boeing testimony, as well as that of Third Party defendants blocked under the "Protective Rule". The twist here is that the rule exists normally to allow the disclosing party to limit public disclosure to protect release of private or confidential information to the public eye (beyond the court). It is unusual, but not unprecedented, for the opposing side to file for "Protection" regarding the other side's disclosures. In this case it would appear that Rossiclown is trying to suppress these discoveries to protect his public image (the seeming most important thing in life for him, being the Underdog Hero who keeps getting up when The System knocks him down!). They will not be limited for use in any sense by the court. It is nonsensical for him to argue IP protection at this point, as he was paid $10 million to turn it over, as well as discretion for IH to use it as they see fit. Thus, if IH saw no reason to have the depositions protected, Rossiclown's only real argument lays along the lines of 'they, and the public, don't know everything about how it works...' thus he would be admitting breach of contract on the IP payment of $10 million by IH and that the patent filings were incomplete/void. It is also interesting to note that Rossiclown used a Sock Puppet on his blog to claim ignorance (likely) of the IH contracted test with Boeing, and went so far as to say it was a "Demo", ie. not test. Another Sock Puppet engagement declared that Rossiclown had witnessed many times working tests with IH which they (Cherokee-IH, as per his version of reality) used to "gather 250 millions...", of course saying in reply to his puppet that his lawyers forbid him to comment on the ongoing case (ROTFWLA).

The guy never stops. It is hilarious. As will be the photos of him after losing the civil case, and then facing probably criminal proceedings for tax evasion and fraud.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

ladajo
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by ladajo »

Soo... a quick update on the court proceedings, and then a look at the engineering of the steam pipe requirements for a 1MW E-cat.

The court recently threatened Rossiclown with sanctions if he continues to fail to produce required discovery items. In addition, most of his activity lately seems to be a fishing expedition seeking a potential smoking gun regarding IH and Cherokee conspiring to defraud him. The comedy aspect, is that while he is doing this, each new snippet of evidence from discovery that is made public paints a deeper darker picture for Rossiclown. Recently, Penon was scheduled for a Deposition in the Dominican Republic, as well as Fabiani in Russia. So the missing Penon has finally surfaced, and also apparently has refused to return to the U.S. (wonder why?) for proceedings. Also, it appears that the Fake Customer Rep. Bass is also being or was already Deposed.

On the other note, there are some idiots over at LENR-Forum who obviously have no experience or background in steam engineering who are attempting to argue that the steam produced for 1MW is manageable by the known to date plant parameters for the E-Cat. This is horseshit, as much so as Rossiclown's previous claims of power and steam production from his early units. Some may recall I showed the math and compared that to the claimed evidence written, verbal, and video from those small units and demonstrated the falsehoods by Rossiclown.

Therefore, in that spirit, here are some quick numbers and back of the envelope engineering in regard to the Doral Plant showing it is a pipedream, pun intended:
I freely invite anyone to review my work below and provide critique or feedback. If I made a mistake, let me know and I will fix it.
I also invite, again..., our resident Rossibot, Parallel, to dispute the engineering below. I expect, as last time, he can not.

Noted size of steam pipe (Murray Letter to Penon asking questions): DN40
Noted pressure of Steam from court submissions: 1 bar (assumed from 0 Bar gauge), this is equivilant to atmospheric, which was also stated by Rossiclown a number of times...
Noted temperature of Steam from court submissions: 102 (rough average from the data). Note that this implies superheat of 2 degrees for 1 bar, which is not really a big deal from an energy transport perspective verses saturated steam enthalpy. 2 degrees at those pressures is essentially meaningless for superheat.
Noted claimed power output of plant from court submissions: 1MW

So from this we can do a quick idiot check for the pipe engineering...

DN40 pipe is nominally 43mm for internal diameter, and is suggested to support a maximum steam flowrate of 100kg/hr at 25 meters per second for steam at 1bar. If you up the velocity to 40m/s, then you can get about 172 kg/hr.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/steam ... d_258.html

From here we ask ourselves, what is the maximum rated flow of heat energy in a DN40 pipe flowing 172kg/hr (assumed high end velocity 40m/s or 90miles/hr - high steam speeds erode piping, thus there are speed limits...) with a temperature of 102C, and pressure of 1 bar (0 bar g)?

First we need to check the enthalpy of 100C / 1 bar saturated steam, which is about 2680 kJ/kg.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/satur ... d_457.html

Then we can solve for power using the basic steam flow-power equation: Mass flow rate = 3600 * P / He where P is power in Kw, He is enthalpy, and Mass flow is Kg per hour.

Thus, we know Velocity, He, and do not P, solving for P gives: P = Ms * He / 3600
Which provides a result: (172 * 2680) / 3600 = 128.8 Kw (which is strangely in the realm of the reported power usage data).

This is far short of the stated 1MW.

Now, let's look at it from the other angle of what mass flow rate of steam is needed to present 1MW?

Solving for knowns of P = 1MW, and He = 2680, we get Ms = (3600 * P) / He, or Ms = (3600 * 1000) / 2680 or 1343.3 kg/hr (which is a lot of flow!)
Now we can solve for DN40 pipe velocity to move 1343.3 kg/hr of saturated steam (or slight super heat).
For comparison we will also solve for 172 kg/hr of steam as the calculated maximum capacity of DN40 pipe.

The relevant engineering equation is Ms = 3600 * pi * (v/V) * (d / 2)^2 where v is Steam Velocity in m/s, V is Specific Volume of Steam in m^3/kg, and d is inner pipe diameter in m. Thus solving for v we get v = Ms * V / (3600 * pi * (d / 2)^2) or v = 1343.3 * 1.600 (estimated) / (3600 * pi * (.043 / 2)^2) = 411m/s or 900mph. That is pretty fast, in fact about Mach 1.2. Talk about noisy, and erosive...

Now to calculate the velocity at maximum capacity for DN40 of 172 kg/hr we get v = 172 * 1.600 (estimated) / (3600 * pi * (.043 / 2)^2) = 52m/s or 117mph. That is fast, and noisy, however nowhere near the claimed 1MW, at 128Kw it is about 12% of it. This check also shows our math/process is reasonable given the estimated 40m/s for DN40 pipe at 172kg/hr. The difference being that we estimated the enthalpy for 1 bar / 102 degrees (which is a very slight superheat condition). For reference, 100.1C at 1 bar (atmospheric) steam is 2675.8 Kj/Kg enthalpy, and 102C at 1 bar steam is 2679.8 Kj/Kg. A difference of 4 Kj/Kg, and 4Kj is equivalent to 1.1 watt-hours. (ie. not much...)

Great little government provided water properties calculator provided here (however units are English, so for metric you need to convert):
https://www4.eere.energy.gov/manufactur ... /propSteam

So what do we know now?

DN40 pipe if in fact the steam pipe used for Doral is massively inadequate. In addition, it would probably not last long from an application perspective, even if running at only 128Kw max rating for the temps/pressures submitted to the court.

And..., if you wanted to achieve the 1MW claimed rating with DN40, you would have steam running at 1.5Mach with a volumetric flow rate of 1343.3 kg/hr for the court submitted temp/pressures.

Does this sound reasonable? Not so much to me. Be a lotta hearing protection going on that was never seen in ANY photos of folks hanging around the plant. Mach 1.5 steam is not quiet.

Sooo, one last point: What would be a reasonable size of pipe for 1MW at 1 bar and 102 degrees?

If you went for 25m/s (decent velocity) for 102C / 1 bar steam at a mass flow rate of 1343.3kg/hr (1MW equivalent heat energy), you are looking at a 150mm (about 6 inches) pipe inner diameter.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/steam ... d_258.html

Anyone recall seeing a 150mm(6 inch) diameter steam outlet pipe in any Doral pictures? Or a 150mm(6 inch) steam pipe in ANY E-Cat photo ever???
Not me... some folks argued DN80, however, that is also too small... as shown above you are looking for DN150 to meet the requirements.

Once again basic physics defeats Rossiclown's claims.

Rossi is full of shit.

Image

Edits: Added small bit about scope and scale perspective to the superheat argument, added to link to Government Water Properties Calculator to help the challenged, and fixed a typo (172Kg/hr vice the typo'd 128Kw here: will also solve for 128 kg/hr of steam). The following calculation was correct, using 172.
Last edited by ladajo on Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

ladajo
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by ladajo »

Definitely not a 6 inch pipe here either...

Image

To help understand an estimated pipe size choice by the Rossiclown, consider that a standard shipping container is 8 feet wide.
So a little bar napkin engineering gives us...

21 corrugated end panel bend sections (count them it is fun).
The two vertical corner posts at an estimated equivalence to 1.5 corrugated bend sections, gives a rough estimate of 24 "sections".
8 feet is 96 inches.
96 inches divided by 24 gives 4 inches per "section".
The piping can be seen to be a bit less than a "section" for Outer Diameter (OD), and thus can be argued to be about 3" OD. The standard piping sizes do not run in 3" OD, and come in at 2.875" OD or 3/5" OD. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to figure out which is in the photo(s).

Depending on the piping schedule (wall thickness) you could have a varying Inner Diameter (ID) (ie. flow cross section). The following gives a couple of commonly used 2.875"OD and 3.5"OD pipe schedule IDs. Obviously you pick a schedule based on rated pressure, temperature, erosion, and weight requirements. Probably, Rossiclown used Schedule 40, or if he was a cheap-skate, Schedule 10. Thus, according to below the IDs (Schedule 40) could have been about 2.5" or 3", neither of which are anywhere near rated for 1MW heat flow at 102C / 1bar. Remember that the upper suggested limit for industrial steam velocity is 40m/s (90mph).

411.1103363

Schedule 10: 2.875" (73mm)OD 2.635" (66.90mm)ID
Schedule 40: 2.875" (73mm)OD 2.469" (62.68mm)ID gives 193.48m/s (435mph) steam velocity
Schedule 80: 2.875" (73mm)OD 2.323" (58.98mm) ID

Schedule 10: 3.5" (88.9mm)OD 3.26" (82.80mm)ID
Schedule 40: 3.5" (88.9mm)OD 3.068" (77.92mm)ID gives 125.20m/s (282mph) steam velocity
Schedule 80: 3.5" (88.9mm)OD 2.9" (73.66mm) ID

http://www.tiogapipe.com/assets/files/pipe-chart.pdf

Edit: added bit about Standard Container sizing and quick scaling for pipe size estimates, and piping schedule discussion related to steam velocities.
Last edited by ladajo on Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

ladajo
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by ladajo »

On another note, lots has been made of the 1MW and what happened to it in the Doral workspace.
If, say 75% of it was waste heat (reasonable), for reference sake, it would take about 15 minutes for a 3m x 3m x 3m space to heat to 450C.
Temperature for the same volume hits 300C in less than 5 minutes.
Granted these numbers are for an unventilated space.
(Neviakas, Andrew, 2007. Inverse fire modeling to estimate the heat release rate of compartment fires. Page 45, figures 13 & 14. College Park, MD: University of Maryland)

Soo... if we add in a vent feature, say a door at 1m x 2m with 1MW of heating...
Then we get over 600C within 30 minutes.
(Neviakas, 2007, pp61-63, figure 28)

And... say we add a window in addition to the door both at 1m x 2m, with 1MW of heating...
we now are rising above 580C within 30 minutes.
(Neviakas, 2007, pp71-74, figure 35)

And if you adjust the reference model, just to see, for the same case as above...
you are well over 350C within 30 minutes.
(Neviakas, 2007, pp75-77, figure 38)

Now, granted you would need to dial back the drama for increased volume of Doral, however I believe the above is sufficient to demonstrate that it was going to get really warm in the warehouse under continuous 1MW Ecat operations. Also, the temps above are not the equilibrium temps. Oh, almost forgot to add that the average human will expire with exposure to 100C temperatures in minutes. The more wet the air (humidity), the faster you cook off. If you are unsure, I do not recommend testing it out by seeing how long you can keep you head in a 200F oven. In general, folks start having issues over 50C (120F), and don't forget that humidity matters as well (more is worse).

To add additional help in understanding the amount of heat being generated, it takes about 1 pound of coal to generate 1Kwh. Thus, 1,000 lbs to generate 1MWh. Sooo... if you were to run an equivalent coal boiler as the 1MW Ecat, you would be feeding it at least 1000 lbs of coal per hour. Imagine lighting a fire in the middle of the Doral floor, and burning 1000 lbs of coal per hour (continuously). Hmmm. And if you are still not grasping the amount of heat, then try to imagine burning two barrels of oil per hour in the middle of the floor. If you are unsure how much heat that makes, then the next time you have a firepit evening (outside), try dropping 1qt of motor oil in it, and then step back. Alot. Now try dropping in 6 quarts every minute. Again, I do not recommend standing close. Nor doing this anywhere near trees, bushes, or any kind of structure. :)
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=667&t=6
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

DancingFool
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by DancingFool »

ladajo -

While I have no sympathy for Rossi, and rather look forward to his comeuppance, I need to check one of your assumptions.

You calculate the steam velocity through a DN40 pipe, and the results are pretty definitive. Has Rossi or Penon stated anywhere that ALL the steam passes through a single DN40 pipe, or is this used for the output of each eCat? With a large number of individual eCats, the flow rate from any individual unit is obviously much lower than the total. The limit would then be set by the larger exit pipes. And while the blue box you show uses an inadequate exit pipe, is there a spec anywhere on what was used in the final unit? Or is that picture supposed to be the unit used in the test? Frankly, the reddish blocks on the first photo look rather like peristaltic pumps, so they would be input rather than output. Or have I got it wrong?
"Bother!" said Pooh, as he strafed the lifeboats.

ladajo
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by ladajo »

This is the $64 question. We only have photographic evidence for the pre-Doral build(s) showing exposed pipe as far as I know. There are pics from Doral, however the ones I have seen only show insulated pipe. That said, the insulation diameter does not indicate a 6" pipe, more like a 3" or smaller, which is consistent with previous builds. The only other piece of information we have is Murray's letter to Penon, asking about the "DN40" pipe. There has been some debate in the peanut galleries over what this means, 40mm pipe, or schedule 40 pipe. If it is the former, then it is ridiculous, as noted above.

There is the below photo showing the Doral piping from the Ecat to the "Customer Plant". It does not appear to be 6" pipe. The top one appears to be well insulated 3" or so. An insulated 6" would be pushing 10" to 12" with a 2" to 3" layer of lagging. In my experience, lagged steam lines are normally about double the pipe OD. For reference, I show the lagged version of the above double line unit. (I am guessing one is supply: top, the other return: bottom based on his other Rube Goldbergs)

Image

Image
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

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