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Re: LENR Is Real

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:39 pm
by tomclarke
The two very strong tech issues are pump rate and heat exchange.
The (Last minute claimed) heat exchanger from Rossi was validated by an expert report from Wong which makes interesting reading. In particular the critical heat transfer coefficient (HTC) claimed was referenced irregularly in an italian internet site (and BTW does not exist there). Clear evidence that Rossi fed this to Wong who just accepted it.

The issue then of whether the heat exchnager could dissipate 1MW is more complex. Basically - it can. Obviously. Because you can speed up airflow over a tube heat exchanger by adding baffles and reducing the effective area. to get any HTC you like, since HTC depends on air speed (obviously).

But - to get the required air speed for even 500kW (20m/s) you need a whacking greeat fan. the mechanical power alone required is 50kW. This is a bit of a problem since the FPL utility data shows < 50kW total power draw for the factory including the e-cat electric heaters. And the difference between FPL power and measured e-cat input power is only a few kW.

So no possibility that a heat exchanger with the design Wong said Rossi gave him could have been used to solve the excess heat problem. Details including spreadsheet for numbers ... /?pageNo=1.

(2) pump rate
Just to add to Ladajo's excellent review above. Rossi + fans now claim another pump making significant back-pressure. Well, obviously, with enough back pressure you can unseat the valves and push a high flowrate through the Prominent pumps. A bit weird, they then become insignificant.

But - if Rossi claims he has made such a big undocumented change from the test plan there is no way anyone can conclude anything. Rossi can easily have his additional pump recirculating hot water back to the e-cat outputs - there is a so-called steam riser fit for this purpose - and no power required to keep the temperature up at near boiling point with as you like.

The fascination of this story is how Rossi keeps the support of honest and thinking scientists. It is really weird, and something to do with the way he promises energy wish-fullfillment fantasies.

Re: LENR Is Real

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:06 pm
by ladajo
Hello Tom,
Nice to see you still poking around here. I believe your point about the Mythical Heat Exchanger power requirements to be right on the money. This was one of the first things I considered when it originally came up. As you pointed out, there are a number of configurations that would support the package in the space alotted, however, at the end of the heat transfer and fluid flow chain, one is still looking at an iron to air exchange. This remains dependant on three major functions, as you have well noted, internal/external surface area, fluid mass flow rate, and air mass flow rate. In Rossiclown's original (most probably plagiarized idea from the Forums) defense was simply <paraphrased>: "I bought a bunch of piping from Home Depot, and fans to blow air over it." This then became, "it is not important where I got the pipes (which Home Depot obviously doesn't sell in the store), and I hired guys to build it (from the parking lot). Oh, and there were really big fans I have since repurposed, but still have not ever shown anyone, as well as the thousands of pounds of piping...". And lest we not forget, "Oh yeah, and I took the windows out from upstairs, and blew high mass flow rate hot air in the front of the building that no one ever noticed."

In time, space, and material, it is certainly possibly to engineer a 1MW capable heat sink, however, it seems apparent to me it was never actually done, and remains a Rossisaid Myth, like many other things.

Edit: I can't count to three...

Re: LENR Is Real

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:46 pm
by ladajo
Tom, I also wanted to add that it is very humorous to me that The Faithful can not see that if there is a "recirculator pump", and it is 'forcing' the check valves on the PD Diaphragm pump, that the diaphragm now serves ZERO purpose, as it has no Check Valves to create a working volume. It literally becomes a pointless oscillating rubber disk, doing no pumping at all. At best, it may introduce a very small amount of heat and vibration to the fluid which is free flowing by. There is no chance of a "topping off" effect. And running these metering pumps in parallel with a "recirculating pump" is even more pointless. It begs the question; Why have them at all...???

This propensity to self seek fantastic nonsensical un-thought out explanations in order to defend the Rossiclown Savior are what makes this saga interesting to me. The other part is a morbid curiosity regarding when Rossiclown will self destruct and either flee the country, end up in jail, or some combination of both. Which would be history repeating in his case.

Re: LENR Is Real

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:38 pm
by ladajo
More on pump testing over at LENR-Forum. So far, the tester, Alan Fletcher, has created a nice pump curve which shows an increasing performance at under spec. back pressures. I am curious with his testing method, where he has built a large pole (tower) to run 1/2inch tube up to get up to a .5 bar discharge head. However, I am unsure how he is actually measuring his run. It seems to me on the surface, that he is starting his run when the tube is empty, and then stopping it when max height is reached. This, if so, could give an error in his data reflecting the mass of water having an increasing impact with loading back pressure as it climbs the tube. If this is the case, I expect he is seeing a little more flow than he should.

He has also built in a pivot where he can tilt the whole rig to get the discharge height he wants, allowing for variable discharge head up to the full vertical .5 bar. All in all a noble effort, and well done on his part in pursuit of the truth. I have to wonder if Rossiclown is following the work, and preparing some fantastical response to cover his ass when this data contradicts him (again). More magical invisible equipment will materialize again I suspect.

It appears that another poster there has bought a backpressure regulator and sent it to him from the UK. If so, this will give another means to tet runs of the pump up to 2 bar. The rated range of the pump is .5 to 2 bar for 32l/hr. The curve seems to be settling to be pretty flat at 32l/hr from .5 bar and on. However this is not certain until tested. Some posters are claiming that the data indicates the pump is running at 80% capacity. I don't think this can be said until it is tested over the full manufacturers curve range. So far it has only been tested from 0 to .5 bar.

The maximum flow noted so far with the standard test conditions of a 26.5 inch suction lift was about 40l/hr, when the discharge head was zero (tube even with pump discharge). The maximum flow seen was an anomalous run where the the discharge was low (even with pump) and feed tank raised about 6 inches above suction port, at 47l/hr. One wonders if this was an effect of completely unloading the diaphragm solenoid, or there was some free flowing occurring as the valves unseated with forward static pressure differential.
In order to fix the potential testing error I think he has by measuring the tube filling, he should fill the tube, then do a double feed tank method to isolate and stabilize his input, as well as provide a source of mass flow rate measurement. By having two tanks, one can be hooked to the pump suction, and maintained at constant feed level, thus stabilizing suction head. This tank can overflow (thus providing constant level) to another larger tank it sits above. This tank can be measured for level, and simultaneously weighed, to provide two measures of content. It in turn is used to feed the suction feed tank by a small recirc. pump. As volume is sent up the discharge head tube, the feed tank maintains suction head, while the makeup tank volume decreases (as the recirc pump maintains fill on the suction feed tank) and is measured. In addition, he can time the run, and count the metering pump strokes as he has been doing. Sticking a thermometer in the feed suction tank will also tell him the density. This also matters when correcting for actual pump head created by the tower height.
Unfortunately, and on purpose, I do not post at LENR-Forum, so can not tell him this advise. If anyone else here wants to, they can feel free to pass on my observation. Otherwise, I guess maybe a poster from there that follows us here may see this. If not, so be it. Not the end of the world.

Pump Testing

Edit: added link to LENR-Forum Thread for the curious.

Re: LENR Is Real

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:17 pm
by Grumalg
Accumulated evidence that Rossi E-cat was fraud ... ore-136013

Which leads to (among other things)

The Pied Piper of Bologna: Andrea Rossi and the E-Cat Con ... ndex.shtml

Re: LENR Is Real

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:24 pm
by MSimon
Rossi is still at it. LOL

How can you tell he is a scam?

I'll tell you tomorrow.

Re: LENR Is Real

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:21 pm
by polyill

I come to this thread after two years of absence, and... nothing changed. You have to give the man some credit, he's not a complete failure (but the physics) :P

Re: LENR Is Real

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:41 pm
by ladajo
And, on another Rossiclown news note, for those who do not know, the showman will be putting on his much anticipated Quack-X Extravaganza, on the 24th. For a lucky (supposed) 70 folks who have recieved personal invites from the Master of Clownery Hisself, they get to be there in person, and rub heels with Noble Prize Winners, and Government, Military, and other prestigious persons! At least according to Rossisays.
Doors open at a Secret Location (I am going with Doral, why not, rent is paid...), at 0930, where security will check your picture ID against the Official Guest List, and then then festivities will begin at 1000, with proclaimed (delayed) Web Video Streaming (apparently not live, as proclaimed before) starting at 1200...

<reaches for popcorn... and beer...>

I think it will be fun!

And if you really want a pre-laugh, here is the Rossiclown's self drafted Press Release, designed to masquerade as a news article...

Giggle Inducing Horseshit

Re: LENR Is Real

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:51 pm
by paperburn1
hmmm id check impossible to verify, exclusive ,and high end.
you mentioned Dorel
Trump National Doral Golf Club , no proof but if I were going to run a con, :D that would be the place I would choose as a front.
Access wire is one of those "news" release outfits that are up by Raleigh airport. pay for play outfit.

Re: LENR Is Real

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:44 pm
by ladajo
Even more funny, is Rossiclown has now claimed it was some Journalist who used info from his blog.
The man is hilarious, two good laughs out of one thing!

Re: LENR Is Real

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:30 am
by PolyGirl
"Giggle Inducing Horseshit" Read it and all I can do is 'Snigger'.


Re: LENR Is Real

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:32 pm
by ladajo
Snigger Inducing Horseshit works for me as well!


Re: LENR Is Real

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:07 pm
by ladajo
Looks like Rossiclown is doing his thing in Sweden. Interesting, and fits with his ongoing theme to seek validation by claimed association and collaboration. Which, as many of you know, can be in his mind as simple as sending someone an email meaning for him that they are working closely...

I looked at a couple of photos of the rig, and found his large white box behind the QuackX amusing. Plenty of room there for a battery me thinks. Additionally, it would be interesting to see if he starts and stops it several times, showing the start, stabilization, shutdown cycle. This would also help his case. In any event, I have plenty of popcorn and beer. Here's to the latest Extravaganza supporting Rossiclown's headlong charge back to jail!

Re: LENR Is Real

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:29 pm
by ladajo
So, the short of the long of the Extravaganza is that input power was not measured, because this wasn't needed according to the Rossiclown. And then, to make things even more funny, he claims that the "Control Unit", or as we might say, power supply, required 60W of power to run a cooling fan, while the Quack-X produced 50W...

Sounds a lot like the 500KW generator run test in Italy...

By the way, if anyone wants, I recommend they, if not familiar, look up how much air a 60W fan can move. Then ask yourself where the cooling intake and exhaust were on Rossiclown's magic control unit, not to mention the missing fan noise in the video.

Once again, Rossiclown is full of shit.

Re: LENR Is Real

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:31 pm
by Skipjack
ladajo wrote:So, the short of the long of the Extravaganza is that input power was not measured, because this wasn't needed according to the Rossiclown.
Oh boy! Of course that won't discourage the true believers, because Rossisays.