em drive

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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birchoff
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Re: em drive

Postby birchoff » Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:34 pm


Betruger
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Re: em drive

Postby Betruger » Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:19 pm


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Re: em drive

Postby Diogenes » Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:16 pm

‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Aero
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Re: em drive

Postby Aero » Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:59 pm

Now that was totally worthless. Popular mech. just repeating stuff bloggers posted days ago based on the misleading summary abstract. They should have named it the "Null - in virtual plasma theory - device" then when it caused measured thrust, readers might realize that it was the - virtual plasma theory - that was off. Of course that is not a surprise to a lot of scientists.

The problem with explaining the device is that when compared to a classic ion thruster producing 17 watts of jet power, that classic ion thruster would have an exhaust velocity of about 373,000 m/s and a mass flow of about 2.44E-10 kg/s. With the ion thruster in the lab we can measure the exhaust velocity and mass flow. With the EM thruster we can't. If the force is verified as real by further tests, then we need to do a lot of head scratching to figure out where that mass comes from and where it goes. The energy isn't a problem, it is conserved from the 17 watts drive power to jet power. But the mass?
Aero

GIThruster
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Re: em drive

Postby GIThruster » Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:19 pm

It is part of the Standard Model that virtual particles pop into and out of the quantum vacuum all the time. According to Sonny, this is where the mass comes from and where it goes. The real trouble is that these are VIRTUAL, not real particles. There are so many of them, that if they gravitated, they would cause the universe to collapse from its own gravity. Obviously, they don't gravitate, which is what makes them "virtual". However, Einstein's Equivalence Principle says that gravitational mass and inertial mass are not only indistinguishable, they are the same thing. So if virtual particles can't gravitate, they can't transfer momentum either. If they can't transfer momentum, then they can't be used for propellantless thrust. Hence our trouble. Sonny's "theory" which certainly does not rise to the level of a scientific theory, makes no sense at all as it is a denial of EEP. This is why Sean Carroll at CalTech calls it "bullshit".
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

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Re: em drive

Postby Skipjack » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:07 pm

I thought that virtual particles were still part of the universe and have all real properties, but if they pop into existence at one place, they pop out of existence at another.

hanelyp
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Re: em drive

Postby hanelyp » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:12 pm

The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.

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Re: em drive

Postby Aero » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:13 pm

Not to be defending any theory, but AIUI virtual particles pop out as particle/antiparticle pairs that quickly annihilate each other. If it should be the case that the antiparticle produces antigravity or "antimass" (how could that be?) then EEP would be satisfied even when the particle had mass. In this physics the thruster might work by causing a transient separation of the particle/antiparticle pair by accelerating the particle.

As I posted on the other EM Drive thread, conservation of energy (17 watts) dictates that the thrust be produced by a mass stream of 2.44E-10 kg/s at 373 km/s to produce 17 watts jet of energy. 0.244 micrograms is still a lot of particles but then they are everywhere, maybe there are enough?
Aero

GIThruster
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Re: em drive

Postby GIThruster » Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:30 pm

I'm not familiar with any model that proposes virtual negative mass particles, but they would be accelerated in the opposite direction than positive mass particles by a powerful field, so they would cancel the thrust from such a device. In any case, neither ZPF theory aka Haish, Rueda Puthoff ZPF theory, nor Sonny White's QVF model based on it, speak of negative mass.

It is interesting that Bernie Haish is at CalTech, and Sean Carroll (at CalTech) still felt comfortable saying that treating virtual particles in the vacuum as plasmas is "bullshit". That's pretty bold stuff. But note Carroll was not referring to his peer at CalTech. He was definitely referring to Sonny.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Aero
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Re: em drive

Postby Aero » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:26 pm

Aero

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Re: em drive

Postby Carl White » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:35 pm


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Re: em drive

Postby RERT » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:55 pm

Couple of points:

1. I'm far from a physicist, but I recall that 'Hawking Radiation' is caused by gravitational effects near an event horizon tearing virtual particle pairs apart. So the assertion that virtual particles don't gravitate is at least suspect.

2. The AEGIS experiment at CERN is working on measuring the effect of gravitation on anti-hydrogen, i.e. trying to determine if it falls up or down. I'd be waiting for a wailing and nashing of teeth if they fell up, but at least someone is checking.

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Re: em drive

Postby tokamac » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:28 pm


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Re: em drive

Postby Aero » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:54 pm

Aero

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Re: em drive

Postby RERT » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:59 am

I had intended to post this reference in respect of the AEGIS comment.

EPL (Europhysics Letters) Volume 94 Number 2
M. Villata 2011 EPL 94 20001 doi:10.1209/0295-5075/94/20001

Abstract

The gravitational behavior of antimatter is still unknown. While we may be confident that antimatter is self-attractive, the interaction between matter and antimatter might be either attractive or repulsive. We investigate this issue on theoretical grounds. Starting from the CPT invariance of physical laws, we transform matter into antimatter in the equations of both electrodynamics and gravitation. In the former case, the result is the well-known change of sign of the electric charge. In the latter, we find that the gravitational interaction between matter and antimatter is a mutual repulsion, i.e. antigravity appears as a prediction of general relativity when CPT is applied. This result supports cosmological models attempting to explain the Universe accelerated expansion in terms of a matter-antimatter repulsive interaction.
===========================================
I read the paper, but as I said, I'm not a physicist. It looks reasonable enough, the math seems to scan, and the guy seems pretty mainstream. At one time I would have said that peer review ought to have picked up an obvious sign-error, I'm not so sure these days!


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