Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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RodCarlson
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Postby RodCarlson » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:10 am

On that note of Carnot efficiency conversion it would also be much easier to thermally absorb and insulate the fusor furnace if compact versus several apartment buildings large.

D Tibbets
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Postby D Tibbets » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:53 am

To error is human... and I'm very human.

D Tibbets
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Postby D Tibbets » Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:20 am

RodCarlson, you idea of the alternalting the polarity of adjacen magnets may actually be good. But I don't think you could maintain this alternate polarity in three dimensions. At, least with a truncated cube shape. Perhaps with a higher order polygon?

Note, that when I said there was no magnetic fields in the contained plasma, I used the gross qualifier.On the edge where the electrons are turned back towards the center, it is obviously due to magnetic influence, but the electrons spend the vast majority of their time inside this border region. The ions, at least ideally, never reach the radius of the border where the magnetic fields from the electromagnets are3 compressed to.
Each moving charged particle produces it's own magnetic field, and this effects any other moving charged particles in the system. Like Gauss Law reasoning though, this 'micro' magnetic field influence is countered by all of the other 'micro' B fields from other moving charged particles. The net effect is no net magnetic field effects. This is different in the tokamak as the majority of charged particles have a common vector.

In the Polywell, it is not only that the electromagnetic field is excluded to the Wiffleball border, the plasma itself in not magnatized due to any bulk movement(spin of the plasma), this would change if the plasma was spinning. Some have proposed that this might be beneficial for containment. Maby, but this difference in having a magnetic plasma has to be considered in the reasoning.

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

RodCarlson
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Postby RodCarlson » Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:11 pm

Hi Dan,

From the Wiki of biconic Cusps I've posted the picture a quote of text below:

Unfortunately for some reason the image isn't showing up inline. So please all go set your browser address to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Biconic_Cusp.jpg
Image

"The magnetic fields in this system were made by electromagnets placed close together. This was a theoretical construct used to model how to contain plasma. The fields were made by two coils of wire facing one another. These electromagnets had poles which faced one another and in the center was a null point in the magnetic field. This was also termed a zero point field. These devices were explored theoretically by Dr. Harold Grad at NYU's Courant Institute in the late 1950s and early 1960s.[2][3][4] Because the fields were planar symmetric this plasma system was simple to model.
Particle behavior

Simulations of these geometries revealed the existence of three classes of particles.[5] The first class moved back and forth far away from the null point. These particles would be reflected close to the poles of the electromagnets and the plane cusp in the center. This reflection was due to the magnetic mirror effect.[6][7] These are very stable particles, but their motion changes as they radiate energy over time. This radiation loss arose from acceleration or deceleration by the field and can be calculated using the larmor formula.[8] The second particle moved close to the null point in the center. Because particles passed through locations with no magnetic field, their motions could be straight, with an infinite gyroradius. This straight motion caused the particle to make a more erratic path through the fields. The third class of particles was a transition between these types. Biconic cusps were recently revived because of its similar geometry to the Polywell fusion reactor.[9]"



When you talk the polywell ion particles of no spin in the polywell cusps you are talking about the blue particles in the picture above (called erratic), whereas I don't diagree that those erratic particles of no spin would exist, I'm also talking about stable (red) and transition (pink) ion motions as well. You do agree that the stable and pink ion motions exist right? Or are we missing something here?

See the thing to me is that the stable (red) can change to transitionary or erratic. And I think the advantage of looking at the H fields not just at the cusps is that we can take advantage of ions flowing here and even accelerate them using an oscillating magnetic external coil fields to become erratic (blue) instead. Yes spinning particles would create there own issues, but ignoring them is like pretending they won't or don't occur in the polywell. I don't see how that is possible given that cross products and spins are apt to happen to misforunately aligned erratic particles to the field H lines. True that the spinning variety have more losses predicted by Larmor formula, but they are also acceleratable to much the same kind of external magnetic fields. To me I don't think of the Polywell as an ideal erratic ion device, that might have been the goal of how Bussard seen it at the time as the most likely to yield fusion because of the extra losses due to Larmor radiation of the stable and transitory types damping themselves out faster. But that doesn't mean these ions can be ignored or don't exist. Or better yet in an accelerator of changing magnetic field can't be used to generate erratic ones from the their spinning (stable) ones. I keep trying to convince you the model of only erratic type ions in a magnetic cusp is simplfied one (assuming fast damping of other types), you can't have particles that even deviate a slight amount with the external field lines and not expect a magnetic spin to results. Thats as simple as 101 EM of charged particles, but maybe Bussard in his model was able to eliminate them as feasible for lossy reasons.

As far as net magnetic field of plasma being neutral I agree with this statement whole heartedly. I think of that like this. If I had a straight wire flowing with a current upward, and I want to know the H fields I would perform Amperes Law of Integration around that wire. In other word the current/(perimeter of circle =2piR). I then subject this wire to an external magnetic field the wire would experience a force=iLxB. Now I put another wire exactly parallel the first wire and run current in the opposite direction and tape them together so they can't pull away from each other. Amperes Law would sum up the current as being zero between the two wires so there would be a net zero H field and no interaction as a set of wires tied together to external magnetic field H/B. With no net current being they cancel each other there would also be no net Lorentz iLxB force. That however doesn't mean that the ions traveling in each wire do not feel the force of the external magnetic field H. In fact the iLxB of one wire creates a negative force of -iLxB of the second wire and the two forces push the wires against each other and balance as sum zero force externally. Still Hall voltage and iLxB still applies to each of the ions in the individual wires. In the same way you can say plasma moving in both outward and inward direction create a net zero current, but there is still an interaction with the external H fields. This is why the literature I provided above proves EM 101 that these spinning particles exist in the biconic cusps (aka Polwell derivative), they have to exist. True they might not be what Bussard wanted to focus on in creating fusion in his machine (because of losses of radiation and damping out factor), but that doesn't mean we can say they don't exist in the Polywell. Further with a little introspection we might be able to utilize these ion paths to do what I think Lockheed is doing in their deriviative of a Polywell.

Yes the dyamics would change on the Polywell and I'm fine with that if it is justified. I'm trying to justify doing that but I have the chicken and egg paradox first and just going to model it a 3-D Ansoft plasma to see if indeed any acceleration occurs by an oscillating external fields of the Helmholtz. If that doesn't do what I expect there would be no further argument of mine to even worry about erratic versus stable versus transitory ions in a polywell. I'd really just resign without any argument, simply by not caring anyway.

Regards,
Rod

Betruger
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Postby Betruger » Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:57 pm

You can mirror or upload pics on the net using imgur.com Uploading there is straight forward. Click here at the top of the imgur homepage:
Image
No sign up or sign in - just select image, upload, grab uploaded image's URL.

RodCarlson
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Postby RodCarlson » Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:16 am

Actually also if my theory of the oscillating field winding is correct about being a gridless accelerator, I can explain the reason for the third coil as well in the center of the two opposing Helmholtz coils. Its just kind of falls out so I'm getting a bit pumped if only the FEM software can prove an acceleration of ions by oscillating the external Helmholtz coils. I'll save the details until I can verify the accelerator effect just because I choose to not waste anyone's time yet.

Regards,
Rod

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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Postby bennmann » Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:04 am


D Tibbets
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Postby D Tibbets » Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:06 am

To error is human... and I'm very human.

hanelyp
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Postby hanelyp » Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:29 pm

, despite the .jpg extension, isn't an image URL. Try , Image

This illustration strikes me as a low beta field configuration. In a high beta situation, aka wiffleball, the plasma crates an enlarged region of negligible magnetic field in the center, where erratic particle paths across this region dominate.
The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.

Betruger
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Postby Betruger » Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:14 pm

We're a very low traffic website, but nonetheless wikipedia is a non profit service to the world (basically) and they're far enough from sustainability that they're perpetually asking for donations.

So I reckon it's minimum courtesy to relieve their traffic by mirroring "their" images, rather than inlining.

goldfish
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Postby goldfish » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:01 pm

I found this:


Looking at this Russian design from 2012 it seems that Skunkworks' T4 was heavily inspired on this. There is lots of technical data but I am no expert on fusion. It looks promising though.

Anyone out there who is an expert on these matters?

hanelyp
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Postby hanelyp » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:33 am

The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.

Solo
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Postby Solo » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:27 am

So word through the grape vine at the recent APS meeting is that this project was about to get shut down by Lockheed-Martin, and the publicity stunt was an effort to secure some extra funding and/or an internal-politics move to keep them from being de-funded. Makes sense now.

crowberry
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Postby crowberry » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:13 pm


ladajo
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Postby ladajo » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:36 pm

I heard something similar.
The (LM) approach is reportedly not well received by community plasma physicists. I have heard that the concensus is they have a ways to go beyond glossy photos of shiny stuff.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)


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