Propellantless propulsion from plain-old Special Relativity

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DeltaV
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Propellantless propulsion from plain-old Special Relativity

Postby DeltaV » Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:26 pm


raelik
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Re: Propellantless propulsion from plain-old Special Relativ

Postby raelik » Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:39 pm

Not sure where this paper is trying to go. It's already generally observed that radiation reaction forces (and their gravitational analogue of inertia reaction forces) occur instantaneously.

GIThruster
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Re: Propellantless propulsion from plain-old Special Relativ

Postby GIThruster » Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:27 pm

That was my thought as well. Looks like they're engineers with no training in Relativity, who think they've found an unbalanced force and exception to Conservation because they're assuming something the physicists do not. I would note though, that it is because we observe these reaction forces are instantaneous, that we are forced into something like the Wheeler-Feynman Absorber theory. Some people seem to think that reliance upon this theory is a weakness in Woodward's work, but the reverse is true. If you have to rely upon something that gives less than instantaneous reaction in these scenarios, you know you have something that is not supported by experiment.
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tokamac
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Re: Propellantless propulsion from plain-old Special Relativ

Postby tokamac » Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:49 pm


GIThruster
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Re: Propellantless propulsion from plain-old Special Relativ

Postby GIThruster » Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:54 pm

I guess if it goes into a peer review journal there would be some warrant for that, but you know ARXIV is about the opposite of that. It;'s a great resource but lots of people publish there because you need almost no qualifications and people don't do much in the way of reviews of the work posted there.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

raelik
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Re: Propellantless propulsion from plain-old Special Relativ

Postby raelik » Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:55 pm

Indeed, Wheeler-Feynman Absorber theory (which is not mentioned at all in the paper) immediately sprang to my mind while reading it. That said, I wouldn't dismiss the paper completely out of hand, as this may point to an electromagnetic parallel to Mach effects hiding within SRT.

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Re: Propellantless propulsion from plain-old Special Relativ

Postby pbelter » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:13 pm

Wheeler-Feynman is the most troubling aspect of Woodward effect. Which doesn't mean it is not true but rather counterintuitive and just "troubling"

From what I understood from reading Woodward's book the instantaneous gravitational force propagation that causes inertia is not really "instantaneous" but an effect of a wave travelling backward in time, or from the future from the perspective of an object observing the "instantaneous" inertial force. In order to reach the object experiencing inertia, the wave must have started before the object started accelerating in order to propagate with speed of light and reach the object at the time it started accelerating. The further a mass is from the accelerating object the sooner the wave must have started. Therefore in a galaxy a few billion lights away waves are already sent to cause inertia to objects that are not going to accelerate for a billion of years.

If a wave can travel from the future then, possibly a way might be found to detect it, making it an information carrier. If we can build a wormhole such as dr Woodward talks about and instantaneously travel, say 10 light years away, then detect such waves that are travelling our way and step back through the wormhole, we will know about movements of objects in our neighborhood, 10 years before they happen..

If that all holds up that means there is no free will... and that is most troubling.

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Re: Propellantless propulsion from plain-old Special Relativ

Postby tokamac » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:35 pm


GIThruster
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Re: Propellantless propulsion from plain-old Special Relativ

Postby GIThruster » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:58 pm

"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

hanelyp
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Re: Propellantless propulsion from plain-old Special Relativ

Postby hanelyp » Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:34 pm

The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.

GIThruster
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Re: Propellantless propulsion from plain-old Special Relativ

Postby GIThruster » Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:12 pm

Last edited by GIThruster on Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

pbelter
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Re: Propellantless propulsion from plain-old Special Relativ

Postby pbelter » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:11 pm

If we can open up a wormhole 10 light years away and measure the waves coming in then step back an know the future movements of objects in our neighborhood, then this creates a paradox, as what would stop us if we wanted o influence that movement?

I see couple of options to resolve it

1. We can't build wormholes or devise any other way to get information form a different point is space faster than the speed of light can deliver it to us

2. We can but there is really no free will and all of our future actions are already predetermined no matter what we do.

3. The wave travelling backward through time is a poor explanation of the phenomenon. Is the 3 billion years away galaxy gravitational interacting with locally accelerating object from the spot where it was 3 billion years ago or where it is now? It would make sense that the interaction is from where it was 3 billion years ago, when the wave was generated and this potentially may be measurable by very advanced tech, proving or disproving the hypothesis. This would be a way to distinguish the Wheeler–Feynman absorber from an instantaneous force propagation.

4. There is no way to measure that wave as any measurement would interact with it and therefore the wave could not be generated in the first place. Similar issue as in Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. But if that it the case then we are looking at theory that predicts a phenomenon that cannot be measured and therefore it is not falsifiable

1 & 2 are depressing, 3 means that we really don't understand what is going on , or at least not in easily comprehensible terms. 4 means we have a non falsifiable hypothesis, which means that we can't prove anything except getting a working apparatus and even then we still cannot be sure whether it works the way we think it works.

GIThruster
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Re: Propellantless propulsion from plain-old Special Relativ

Postby GIThruster » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:24 pm

"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

paperburn1
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Re: Propellantless propulsion from plain-old Special Relativ

Postby paperburn1 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:25 pm

This short video with V sauce and bill Nye explains it all
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOwRb584r1c
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

AcesHigh
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Re: Propellantless propulsion from plain-old Special Relativ

Postby AcesHigh » Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:36 am



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