New Polywell Article On HotGas

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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ladajo
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Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby ladajo » Fri May 06, 2016 1:08 pm

TDPerk wrote:"It does not mean his work was not good, as I know some of it was very good. It still does not make him a Professional."

Yes it does.

A trade union acting as a cat's paw for the state, or the state acting as a cat's paw for it, is a contemptible conspiracy against the public.


My argument is based in standards. Mike does not meet those established standards, which all exist for good reason, not some tinfoil hat internet conspiracy garbage about 'the man keeping good folks down'. I can see that your emotional bias against community governance is clouding your ability to see the real issue: establishment and adherence to standards.
Your argument is one normally based in a lack of understanding on the why side of good governance for a community. Mike, while he certainly could have been, is not a real engineer. And, his inability to reconcile his personal differences regarding informed contribution to a community, verses having it his own way, are what has kept him limited in his success and contributions. This is an unfortunate loss of talent for the greater good, however his inner anger at not being taken seriously has overwhelmed his judgement over the years regarding 'giving in a little to gain a lot'. Some further explanation for his behaviours can be possibly found when viewed from Gregorc AS/CR perspectives. He would appear to be a blend of both. While a potentially powerful combination, it is also dangerously self-destructive, especially on anti-social behaviour lines.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

JoeP
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Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby JoeP » Fri May 06, 2016 1:19 pm

MSimon wrote:It is a relatively non technical article for the general public.

Lots of people who had never heard of Polywell were introduced.


I think it achieved those objectives, judging from the comments at that site.

alexjrgreen
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Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby alexjrgreen » Fri May 06, 2016 2:00 pm

ladajo wrote: My argument is based in standards.

That's the rub. The title "engineer" (or "Engineer" for that matter) is not a controlled designation. Nor is "electronics engineer", or even "aerospace electron­ics engineer".

The controlled designation is "Professional Engineer", and as the State of Illinois Professional Engineering Practice Act of 1989 (225 ILCS 325) makes clear:
(e) Nothing in this Act shall prevent:
...
(6) The activities performed by those ordinarily designated as chief engineer of plant operation, chief operating engineer, locomotive, stationary, marine, power plant or hoisting and portable engineers, electrical maintenance or service engineers, personnel employed in connection with construction, operation or maintenance of street lighting, traffic control signals, police and fire alarm systems, waterworks, steam, electric, and sewage treatment and disposal plants, or the services ordinarily performed by any worker regularly employed as a locomotive, stationary, marine, power plant, or hoisting and portable engineer or electrical maintenance or service engineer for any corporation, contractor or employer.

(7) The activities performed by a person ordinarily designated as a supervising engineer or supervising electrical maintenance or service engineer who supervises the operation of, or who operates, machinery or equipment, or who supervises construction or the installation of equipment within a plant which is under such person's immediate supervision.
Ars artis est celare artem.

ladajo
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Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby ladajo » Fri May 06, 2016 2:47 pm

It may be better to say it is less controlled than PE.
In the semantics, I believe the fairest thing is to say you do the work, but are not formally a community member.
It is like putting on a social media account or resume a school that was attended but not graduated from. It is a misrepresentation that should be clarified.
If Mike, or anyone else, can meet the standards to become an accepted and recognized member of the related professional community, then they can claim the community moniker all they want. If not, then be clear about who they are and where they come from. This is exactly the same issue as Rossiclown allowing folks to think he has a PhD, it is a false appeal to authority. It is no different to say, "I am an Aerospace Electronics Engineer" but have no formal education, training, or certification as such. The more proper way to present it is I have successfully worked in (or supported) aerospace electronics engineering for blah blah blah. It allows the reader/audience to be more informed, and subsequently critical. This is about transparency and honesty, not to mention adherence to establish community ethics and principles. Because you can change your own car oil, does that make you a real car mechanic that others can trust their personal safety and well being on? Are you willing to accept the liability of your actions/efforts? As a formal engineer, you have left the "I didn't know" realm behind. You did it, you own it, no matter the outcome. This is why the communities established and sustained.
Like I said, if Mike can meet the criteria of the community, then he is free to claim membership. If not, he should stop the misrepresentations, and the associated acquisition of his claim's benefits, both direct and indirect. He is fundamentally taking advantage of the efforts of others for his own gain, in this case, seeking credibility using false pretenses.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

alexjrgreen
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Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby alexjrgreen » Fri May 06, 2016 4:02 pm

There
ladajo wrote:It may be better to say it is less controlled than PE.

You may wish this to be true, and even be campaigning for this to become true, but it doesn't represent present reality.

A quick look on any job site will show lots of advertised jobs with the title "engineer" that require experience first and foremost. A degree may be an advantage but is not insisted on.

I've never seen msimon describe himself as a "Professional Engineer", and he certainly doesn't in this article. I disagree with your criticism of him.
Ars artis est celare artem.

JoeP
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Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby JoeP » Fri May 06, 2016 4:25 pm

alexjrgreen wrote:There
ladajo wrote:It may be better to say it is less controlled than PE.

You may wish this to be true, and even be campaigning for this to become true, but it doesn't represent present reality.

A quick look on any job site will show lots of advertised jobs with the title "engineer" that require experience first and foremost. A degree may be an advantage but is not insisted on.

I've never seen msimon describe himself as a "Professional Engineer", and he certainly doesn't in this article. I disagree with your criticism of him.


I am mostly in agreement also; however if I wrote the article with similar C.V., I would have clarified it as Ladajo suggested.

So, claiming title of Dr. implies a special degree (e.g. M.D., D.O., PhD, even DMD, DDS) and may have legal implications. I think that is more serious.

As for [Ee]ngineer (using regular expression hah).. certified or professional engineers also often are required certain licensing, tests, and standards (varies by state in the US). But plenty of "engineer" titles are used also for those that have engineering degrees but no certs, or even if that is part of job title and the person doing the work has no diploma in that field. I work with plenty of people that have post-grad degrees in math, physics, and are doing hardware or software computer engineering work, and their job titles reflect that. So if the OP did engineering work, and if his employer classified that job as a type of engineer, then one could get away with the usage. IMO.

ladajo
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Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby ladajo » Fri May 06, 2016 5:26 pm

I agree with this, and wish to say that my point is to perform full disclosure, not misrepresent.
Mike has a checkered employment history, and never really sustained a job. In fact, most of his engineering/assembly support was as a sub-contractor with intermittent projects. The nature of the path he chose in his 'rage against the man' lifestyle.
So, in following with the above logic, he is self-labelled. Does that count?
If you think it does, then please feel free to tell folks whatever you want regarding your profession and skills.

He has never been credentialed or certified in the field or associated field, nor a member of a professional association. So, I don't think it is right for him to apparently intentionally misrepresent himself. Especially in the opening sentence of his advertisement. It was a clear and direct attempt to influence the reader's opinion of everything that followed. It is called propaganda in case you were wondering.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

JoeP
Posts: 519
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:10 am

Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby JoeP » Fri May 06, 2016 8:13 pm

"...misrepresent himself..." not really, it is a grey area. I think it is pretty much the objective take here from most of the people on the thread.

Would I do it with similar resume? No, but I don't think it deserves this kind of passion.

Have at it on the Dr. Rossi thing though, I'm fully behind that. :)

ladajo
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Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby ladajo » Fri May 06, 2016 8:43 pm

So, I don't think it is right for him to apparently intentionally misrepresent himself. Especially in the opening sentence of his advertisement. It was a clear and direct attempt to influence the reader's opinion of everything that followed.


While I may have a biased view here, I offer that it is based in a long history of interacting with Mike. He likes to aggrandize and make appeals to authority.
It is his established M.O., thus, I think it disingenuous for him to open his article with "I’m a retired aerospace electron­ics engineer" when he was not really. If he can establish himself as a professional, then I will change my opinion. I would even settle for him to do something simple, like gain a full member status at IEEE. I am not sure he could. He probably can't demonstrate six full years of 'profession' level work, which would be his only way in, as he does not meet the educational requirements.

He never had a job long enough to retire from. No retirement check, no 401K, no nothing, other than social welfare benefits. And while he may have done some engineering work, mostly he was a fabricator as I understand from the way he has described what he has done. I believe he has also done some fabrication project management as well, predominantly as a sub-contractor.
No formal long term employment, pretty much ever, as I understand. I believe he has stated himself he has never been under the same banner longer than months, other than his single enlistment tour in the navy, which would have been six years.
I am more than happy for Mike to clear that part up if he feel the need. I am going on what he has said, and what he has told me.

I think that words matter.
In this case, Mike's choice of words, and their placement are indicative of self misrepresentation in accordance with past behaviours on his part.
Why else would he use "I’m a retired aerospace electron­ics engineer" to open the article? He could have softened it, with 'I have experience in...' or even better, just left it out: It added no substantive value to the content of the article.
I am all ears if someone wants to take a crack at why he felt the need to lead with that. Help a brother out.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Tom Ligon
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Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby Tom Ligon » Fri May 06, 2016 9:05 pm

I personally try to backtrack away from people putting professional labels on me I don't have. Rockwell Collins and Athena insisted I was an Engineer, when in fact my degree is in Engineering Technology (which, IMO, is much superior if you want to get work done, but few people know what it means). And some people insist on calling me Dr. Ligon, and I have to waste precious time correcting them.

Meanwhile, a study of the history of engineering shows us people with no degree in the subject who were, nonetheless, brilliant engineers. As a case in point, James Buchanan Eads built a steel bridge over the Mississippi, the first steel bridge of any significant size, started just after the Civil War. It still stands and bears heavy traffic. He had no formal education past age 13.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Buchanan_Eads

My personal favorite was Oliver Evans, best known for his 18th century design of an automated flour mill, but also the instigator of high pressure steam engines in the US. He does not seem to have had any formal education other than a couple of years learning to read, write, and cipher, but self-taught himself to employ the latest science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Evans

Where did Hero of Alexandria get his degree? And then there are the unknown geniuses who built the pyramids, or South American canal systems dating back seven millennia, or brilliant waterworks in Cambodia. And let's hear it for the inventor of the wheel.

I understand that Engineers (meaning people who earned degrees in the subject) are rightly proud of their professions. I just wish they had more appreciation of native intelligence, and how much they owe to great builders and inventors who created their profession, back when it was just a trade skill, looked down upon by people who did not make a living with their hands.

paperburn1
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Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby paperburn1 » Fri May 06, 2016 9:42 pm

While not an engineer myself I can completely understand Mike's position on this is angst and not being able to call himself an engineer.
Work with Chrysler airborne technologies I did engineering work as a matter of fact some of the work I did was flying in C-130 aircraft up until the J model was made standard in the fleet. Back then Chrysler/LM had is use the moniker engineering designer rather than engineer because they did not want there to be a confusion between workers and the customer about what was being done and how is being done. Also back then they expected us designers to continue on with our education and eventually receive our degree. Your paid slightly less than engineers but you did the same work and basically all they did was review your paperwork and sign off on it. So while technically I was not an engineer I was doing engineering and this was common in the trades back then. I still do not possess an engineering degree although I have been working in the field for over 30 years, but I do have a butt load of certificates and additional schooling that I attended on a regular basis over the 30 years to maintain qualifications and permissions to work on many systems. Even today we are not allowed call ourselves engineers but we commonly do engineering work. I'm also today still paid as an engineer making six figures.
So while I do not feel is appropriate to call myself an engineer I do understand why Mike would fill the desire to call himself one.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

ladajo
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Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby ladajo » Fri May 06, 2016 10:09 pm

I think that you, having a provable career, and sustained professional employment can make a strong argument. Tom, I also think you can make the argument.

While it is a relatively recent development to formalize professional level designations in various fields, it came as somewhat of a necessity to provide a moral and defendable foundation from which to grow a civilization the scale and complexity of which makes 100 years ago seem like grass huts in the dark. It speaks to community based efforts to contribute to a greater society.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

paperburn1
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Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:53 am
Location: Third rock from the sun.

Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby paperburn1 » Sat May 07, 2016 1:00 am

I think another reason why diplomas and other forms the certifications have become so important as result of our transportation system. Nowadays individual you hire may come from down the street or across the country or even halfway around the world. I first got into the game it was because the guy knew a guy and said this guy would work out good and gave me the job. Nowadays you advertise in the paper online, some work search site, and you really don't know who is recommending them or if they are actually performing well at their previous job. This meant you actually have to rely on the certificates and diplomas to make sure the person has at least had their basic training to do the job your hiring for.

On a similar note I was doing a contract at FedEx and they had a problem in their in-house engineering department. They had hired six guys from India and only two were actually working well. Upon further review it was found out that the four that were not doing very good had diplomas that actually said "satisfactory completed but failed the prescribed course "
at the time we all thought that was hilarious, but nowadays India's putting out some very good engineers and they are competing with us using HB visas
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

KitemanSA
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Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby KitemanSA » Sun May 08, 2016 5:17 am

i was first hired by the Navy, you didn'tneed a degree or licence to be an engineer. 5 years engineering experience was allowed in lieu of degree.

choff
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Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby choff » Sun May 08, 2016 8:35 pm

I guess Thomas Edison would be ruled out as an engineer.
CHoff


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