New Polywell Article On HotGas

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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paperburn1
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Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby paperburn1 » Mon May 09, 2016 1:11 am

That could be debated, his real claim to fame was as a business man that hired professional engineers to build his ideas. Like hammer , Upton ,Sprauge and Johnson. His list of people that worked for him even included Tesla and Henry Ford.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

ladajo
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Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby ladajo » Mon May 09, 2016 3:39 am

You all may not have noticed upthread where I stated that it is not just education, it is also experience.
The trick is having enough experience. In terms of IEEE, they are looking for a demonstrable six formal years of profession level work.
Now, what they accept as sufficient profession level is not fully clear, but does seem to be indicative of post education capabilities.

It is also unhealthy to mix apples and oranges in the form of historical figures who existed well before the established standards and societal magnitude and complexities of today.
What was acceptable seat of the pants engineering back in the day (trial and error), is no longer acceptable given the potential magnitude of the consequences of mistakes. This is what drove the desire for standards, responsibility, and accountability that we have today.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

alexjrgreen
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Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby alexjrgreen » Mon May 09, 2016 11:52 am

Licensed engineers have existed in Wyoming since 1907, and in every state since 1950, although the meaning of the term used to be much narrower. Despite this, an overwhelming majority of engineers — somewhere around eighty percent — do not pursue licensing as a professional engineer.

The Enigma of Engineering's Industrial Exemption to Licensure: The Exception that Swallowed A Profession

I agree that applying standards retrospectively is not appropriate, but even today those standards only apply to a minority of engineers.
Ars artis est celare artem.

ladajo
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Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby ladajo » Mon May 09, 2016 12:13 pm

I am not talking at the PE level. And yes, there was a push late 1800s to early 1900s to establish credentialing with all the rapid expansion both industrial and infrastructure across the nation. So speaking comparably from today to those of that or earlier eras is probably not accurate.
I am talking about being at the level of engineering to be 'recognized' by your peers. This would seem to be indicative of the standards for membership that IEEE (and others) have established, which I discussed above.

Really, I think the weak link in the argument is that you can be accepted as an Engineer, if you have only the undergraduate education. I think that is an error, as the paper does not make the man. I think the minimum should be either education and some measure (4 years?) of real experience doing work on your own, or no (probably real hard these days given some of the topical complexities in play) formal education, but a full measure or real experience at least twice the requirement of the former.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

alexjrgreen
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Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby alexjrgreen » Tue May 10, 2016 12:57 pm

For the IEEE, Professional membership is open to individuals who by experience give evidence of competence in an IEEE designated field.
http://www.ieee.org/membership_services/membership/qualifications.html

Member grade is limited to those who have satisfied IEEE-specified educational requirements and/or who have demonstrated professional competence in IEEE-designated fields of interest. For admission or transfer to the grade of member, a candidate may be either:

  • An individual who has received a three- to five-year university-level or higher degree from an accredited institution or program and in an IEEE-designated field
  • An individual who has received a three- to five-year university-level or higher degree from an accredited institution or program and who has at least three years of professional work experience engaged in teaching, creating, developing, practicing, or managing in IEEE-designated field
  • An individual who, through at least six years of professional work experience, has demonstrated competence in teaching, creating, developing, practicing, or managing within IEEE-designated fields
Ars artis est celare artem.

ladajo
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Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby ladajo » Tue May 10, 2016 2:48 pm

Yes, thanks for posting it. In my humble opinion, as stated above, I think the weak link is the first layer of guidance.
The second layer (any degree plus three years) is also a little weak, but can be argued.
The last is the only way for Mike to gain 'credibility', and looks for at least six full years of profession level experience.

I would prefer it looks more like this:

1.) Engineering Undergraduate Degree plus at least four full years of profession level experience.
2.) Undergraduate Technical Degree plus at least six full years of profession level experience.
3.) Undergraduate Degree plus at least eight full years of profession level experience.
4.) At least ten full years of profession level experience and recommendation from three recognized engineers in your field.

Now, I realize that for a professional society, there is a money argument based on numbers of members.
Thus, I support the idea of having associate memberships (and corresponding community recognition and acceptance) that can be upgraded over time.
The leveling up of membership's is another way to increase membership as well as reinforce professional development and associated career pathing.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

alexjrgreen
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Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby alexjrgreen » Wed May 11, 2016 11:33 am

It's hard to take this seriously when the bar gets jacked up after every round. A high-jump contest is logically no different from an appeal to authority.
Ars artis est celare artem.

ladajo
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Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby ladajo » Wed May 11, 2016 12:13 pm

I am not trying to jack it up, I am saying what I think.
That does not change what I said earlier about Mike and him meeting the standing IEEE requirement, I still stand by that.
This latest exchange was me simply reflecting my personal thoughts on the existing IEEE standard. Nothing more, nothing less.

I would prefer it looks more like this:

emphasis added.

Settle down there, Cowboy.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

alexjrgreen
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Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby alexjrgreen » Wed May 11, 2016 1:23 pm

It seems very likely, from what I've posted above, that msimon could be a member of the IEEE if he chose to pay the subscription.

So ladajo wants to raise the bar...
Ars artis est celare artem.

ladajo
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Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby ladajo » Wed May 11, 2016 2:58 pm

ladajo wrote:You all may not have noticed upthread where I stated that it is not just education, it is also experience.
The trick is having enough experience. In terms of IEEE, they are looking for a demonstrable six formal years of profession level work.
Now, what they accept as sufficient profession level is not fully clear, but does seem to be indicative of post education capabilities.

It is also unhealthy to mix apples and oranges in the form of historical figures who existed well before the established standards and societal magnitude and complexities of today.
What was acceptable seat of the pants engineering back in the day (trial and error), is no longer acceptable given the potential magnitude of the consequences of mistakes. This is what drove the desire for standards, responsibility, and accountability that we have today.
Last edited by ladajo on Wed May 11, 2016 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

ladajo
Posts: 6204
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast

Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby ladajo » Wed May 11, 2016 3:02 pm

ladajo wrote:In the semantics, I believe the fairest thing is to say you do the work, but are not formally a community member.
It is like putting on a social media account or resume a school that was attended but not graduated from. It is a misrepresentation that should be clarified.
If Mike, or anyone else, can meet the standards to become an accepted and recognized member of the related professional community, then they can claim the community moniker all they want. If not, then be clear about who they are and where they come from. This is exactly the same issue as Rossiclown allowing folks to think he has a PhD, it is a false appeal to authority. It is no different to say, "I am an Aerospace Electronics Engineer" but have no formal education, training, or certification as such. The more proper way to present it is I have successfully worked in (or supported) aerospace electronics engineering for blah blah blah. It allows the reader/audience to be more informed, and subsequently critical. This is about transparency and honesty, not to mention adherence to establish community ethics and principles. Because you can change your own car oil, does that make you a real car mechanic that others can trust their personal safety and well being on? Are you willing to accept the liability of your actions/efforts? As a formal engineer, you have left the "I didn't know" realm behind. You did it, you own it, no matter the outcome. This is why the communities established and sustained.
Like I said, if Mike can meet the criteria of the community, then he is free to claim membership. If not, he should stop the misrepresentations, and the associated acquisition of his claim's benefits, both direct and indirect. He is fundamentally taking advantage of the efforts of others for his own gain, in this case, seeking credibility using false pretenses.
Last edited by ladajo on Wed May 11, 2016 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

ladajo
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Location: North East Coast

Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby ladajo » Wed May 11, 2016 3:03 pm

ladajo wrote:I agree with this, and wish to say that my point is to perform full disclosure, not misrepresent.
Mike has a checkered employment history, and never really sustained a job. In fact, most of his engineering/assembly support was as a sub-contractor with intermittent projects. The nature of the path he chose in his 'rage against the man' lifestyle.
So, in following with the above logic, he is self-labelled. Does that count?
If you think it does, then please feel free to tell folks whatever you want regarding your profession and skills.


He has never been credentialed or certified in the field or associated field, nor a member of a professional association. So, I don't think it is right for him to apparently intentionally misrepresent himself. Especially in the opening sentence of his advertisement. It was a clear and direct attempt to influence the reader's opinion of everything that followed. It is called propaganda in case you were wondering.
Last edited by ladajo on Wed May 11, 2016 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

ladajo
Posts: 6204
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast

Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby ladajo » Wed May 11, 2016 3:03 pm

ladajo wrote:
So, I don't think it is right for him to apparently intentionally misrepresent himself. Especially in the opening sentence of his advertisement. It was a clear and direct attempt to influence the reader's opinion of everything that followed.


While I may have a biased view here, I offer that it is based in a long history of interacting with Mike. He likes to aggrandize and make appeals to authority.
It is his established M.O., thus, I think it disingenuous for him to open his article with "I’m a retired aerospace electron­ics engineer" when he was not really. If he can establish himself as a professional, then I will change my opinion. I would even settle for him to do something simple, like gain a full member status at IEEE. I am not sure he could. He probably can't demonstrate six full years of 'profession' level work, which would be his only way in, as he does not meet the educational requirements.

He never had a job long enough to retire from. No retirement check, no 401K, no nothing, other than social welfare benefits. And while he may have done some engineering work, mostly he was a fabricator as I understand from the way he has described what he has done. I believe he has also done some fabrication project management as well, predominantly as a sub-contractor.
No formal long term employment, pretty much ever, as I understand. I believe he has stated himself he has never been under the same banner longer than months, other than his single enlistment tour in the navy, which would have been six years.
I am more than happy for Mike to clear that part up if he feel the need. I am going on what he has said, and what he has told me.

I think that words matter.
In this case, Mike's choice of words, and their placement are indicative of self misrepresentation in accordance with past behaviours on his part.
Why else would he use "I’m a retired aerospace electron­ics engineer" to open the article? He could have softened it, with 'I have experience in...' or even better, just left it out: It added no substantive value to the content of the article.
I am all ears if someone wants to take a crack at why he felt the need to lead with that. Help a brother out.
Last edited by ladajo on Wed May 11, 2016 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

ladajo
Posts: 6204
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast

Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby ladajo » Wed May 11, 2016 3:06 pm

alexjrgreen wrote:It seems very likely, from what I've posted above, that msimon could be a member of the IEEE if he chose to pay the subscription.

So ladajo wants to raise the bar...



ladajo wrote:That does not change what I said earlier about Mike and him meeting the standing IEEE requirement, I still stand by that.
This latest exchange was me simply reflecting my personal thoughts on the existing IEEE standard. Nothing more, nothing less.


I guess you missed up thread where I specifically talked about Mike's ability to meet the 'no degree' six year criteria for IEEE, and that if he could, then so be it. To re-iterate, based on what I personally know about Mike, he may be challenged to demonstrate a full six years of profession level work.

That is all.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

alexjrgreen
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Location: UK

Re: New Polywell Article On HotGas

Postby alexjrgreen » Wed May 11, 2016 3:35 pm

Repetition doesn't make something true.
Ars artis est celare artem.


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