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Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 3:22 pm
by mvanwink5
For utility power, locating on nuclear power sites would be obvious for permitting especially considering low heat rejection compared to a nuclear plant. For steel mills and aluminum foundries the number of units would be dictated by the mill or foundry size.
The thing about peakers is that they have start up costs due to heat stress cycles so they use significant life every time they start up even if they do not generate 1 MW. Helion would run their units all the time even if it were only to generate more He3 & tritium.
Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 3:29 pm
by usesbiggerwords
One other source of revenue for Helion not mentioned much is licensing. Once the technology is proven later this decade (something which I have little doubt will happen), the Mitsubishis and Westinghouses of the world, or those looking to supplant them, will be chomping at the bit to license the tech, since fission seems to be a non-starter these days. 1¢ per W installed per year would be a nice chunk of change for Helion.
Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 4:25 pm
by Munchausen
usesbiggerwords wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2024 3:29 pm
One other source of revenue for Helion not mentioned much is licensing. Once the technology is proven later this decade (something which I have little doubt will happen), the Mitsubishis and Westinghouses of the world, or those looking to supplant them, will be chomping at the bit to license the tech, since fission seems to be a non-starter these days. 1¢ per W installed per year would be a nice chunk of change for Helion.
How is the patent situation looking?
Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 5:47 am
by Skipjack
Munchausen wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2024 4:25 pm
usesbiggerwords wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2024 3:29 pm
One other source of revenue for Helion not mentioned much is licensing. Once the technology is proven later this decade (something which I have little doubt will happen), the Mitsubishis and Westinghouses of the world, or those looking to supplant them, will be chomping at the bit to license the tech, since fission seems to be a non-starter these days. 1¢ per W installed per year would be a nice chunk of change for Helion.
How is the patent situation looking?
They got two or so accepted. Quite a few more are waiting.
I don't think that Helion will license their technology. Westinghouse got bit in the butt by the Chinese with the AP-1000...
Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 6:01 am
by Skipjack
The thing about peakers is that they have start up costs due to heat stress cycles so they use significant life every time they start up even if they do not generate 1 MW. Helion would run their units all the time even if it were only to generate more He3 & tritium.
I am not sure about the heat stresses. I think they are OK with that. But as I said, I would likely run the second machine in "breeding mode" while it is waiting to do some peaking.
Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:50 pm
by mvanwink5
SJ
We had gas turbine peakers at our plant & they were dispatched based on the number of 'cycles remaining'. Gas turbines operate at high temperatures & large pieces of metal that go through a heat up & cool cycle will see fatigue, that & stress due to rotation speeds cause cracks to form.
The key here is that for gas turbines to generate significant energy, 'large' is unavoidable, & that makes them subject to these stress cycles.
On the other hand, Helion is not a high rotating speed device like a gas turbine, so yes, I would not expect to see the same issue. As to the quartz tubes that Helion has, if they need to I would guess the quartz tubes could be annealed again after a certain number of cycles, but a material science specialist would be the one to address that.
Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024
Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 3:12 am
by Skipjack
mvanwink5 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:50 pm
SJ
We had gas turbine peakers at our plant & they were dispatched based on the number of 'cycles remaining'. Gas turbines operate at high temperatures & large pieces of metal that go through a heat up & cool cycle will see fatigue, that & stress due to rotation speeds cause cracks to form.
Oh, yeah for gas turbines, I could totally see that be the case. How many years would they work before needing to be replaced?
For Helion's machines, they will need maintenance when you operate them constantly as well because of X-ray and neutron damage to the first wall, mostly, potentially also the compression chamber. They will likely just switch out the entire machine core and then refurbish it in the factory. Being transportable by road really helps.
Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2024 5:12 am
by mvanwink5
How many years would they work before needing to be replaced?
Size, metalurgy, how they are operated are factors, but I am way out of date so whatever I remember is old info. I do know it is still important.
Replacing gas turbine peakers will be low hanging fruit to target for Helion. On the other hand, the cost to operate would seem to point to base load, but economics can be weird, counter intuitive.
Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2024 9:07 am
by RERT
I think ‘counter intuitive’ is a little kind. I heard that France was reducing nuclear power and adding gas to make way for renewables, because the gas plants were required for load following.
In that context if Helion can load follow, it’s a big deal.
If it’s baseload cost is less than wind and solar, ought to take over, modulo supply diversification, but it will be decades before variable wind and solar plants are retired if they remain prioritized for supply.
Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 1:37 pm
by Skipjack
RERT wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2024 9:07 am
I think ‘counter intuitive’ is a little kind. I heard that France was reducing nuclear power and adding gas to make way for renewables, because the gas plants were required for load following.
In that context if Helion can load follow, it’s a big deal.
If it’s baseload cost is less than wind and solar, ought to take over, modulo supply diversification, but it will be decades before variable wind and solar plants are retired if they remain prioritized for supply.
NPPs in France can load follow quite well, actually. Same with the ones Germany had. France does it all the time. When electricity prices from renewables in Germany are negative again, they ramp down their NPPs and let Germany pay for their electricity
The move to more RE was under the previous administration of France. From what I hear, the current administration has reversed all of that because they saw how badly that went for Germany.
Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 10:27 pm
by RERT
Thanks! I didn’t ever see data supporting that story, not inclined to argue with your explanation.
The data up to 2017 shows nuclear erratically drifting down from about 2005, with fossil fuels flat to up and renewables rising, seeming roughly consistent with your description.
Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2024 4:15 am
by Skipjack
Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024
Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2024 5:06 pm
by TallDave
ran across this video explainer on Kirtley's paper, sorry if it was shared earlier but it really sheds a lot of light on why Helion's FRC approach has exceeded other FRC efforts (ion/electron temperature ratio was the major key)
https://mediacentral.princeton.edu/medi ... 1_9p8c7d85
also apparently when he said radiation losses were not necessarily losses, he was speaking strictly in terms of reaching fusion conditions (i.e. pulsed FRCs don't have to make up those losses continuously like a non-pulsed machine would in order to be hot enough to fuse)
does anyone know for sure how the central compression chamber for Polaris is lined? the 20keV pulses are likely to be in the GW range so I'd be surprised if it's a hollow quartz tube like the accelerators, but calculating loads at 1ms of GW fusion is not a common application
Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024
Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2024 2:16 am
by Skipjack
TallDave wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 5:06 pm
ran across this video explainer on Kirtley's paper, sorry if it was shared earlier but it really sheds a lot of light on why Helion's FRC approach has exceeded other FRC efforts (ion/electron temperature ratio was the major key)
https://mediacentral.princeton.edu/medi ... 1_9p8c7d85
also apparently when he said radiation losses were not necessarily losses, he was speaking strictly in terms of reaching fusion conditions (i.e. pulsed FRCs don't have to make up those losses continuously like a non-pulsed machine would in order to be hot enough to fuse)
does anyone know for sure how the central compression chamber for Polaris is lined? the 20keV pulses are likely to be in the GW range so I'd be surprised if it's a hollow quartz tube like the accelerators, but calculating loads at 1ms of GW fusion is not a common application
Yes, this is quite old by now. Was released before their paper, actually (and their Youtube "theory"- video, which is unfortunately missing the last slide).
Loads on the first wall are expected to be in the 1 to 2 MW range. The total energy in a pulse is relatively low from single digits to low two digit kWh and the tube is actually quite large. They do have some other tricks...
The wall load is not really a major concern for them and Polaris requires less wall cooling than they originally anticipated. There are other components that have bigger problems with heat/cooling and that currently limit the pulse rate. The wall is not nearly as big of a deal.
Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024
Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2024 2:30 pm
by mvanwink5
The wall load is not really a major concern for them
Fusion power is coupled magnetically directly to the plasma & the walls (enclosing the plasma) are quartz. Contrast this to all the other approaches, for example, the walls of General Fusion and Zap Energy are liquid metal.