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Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Nanos wrote:> rich don't steal from the poor.

I'm not aware of any country this doesn't happen on a very large scale, certainly all the wealthy people I know came to be that way because they spent their lives finding ever new ways of stealing from the poor..

(Interestingly, most are Landlords, though one did start off as a drug dealer and invested in property later on..)
Uh. Selling to the poor is not the same as stealing from them.

Stealing from the poor is what kleptocracies do. i.e. overtaxing them preventing their rise. Physically oppressing them. Mugabe any one?

Over regulating business so that only the favored can profit. India until recently.

Not allowing them secure property rights. See Hernando DeSoto the economist from Peru.

Really nanos. You need to study the subject of economics more in depth and not just buy what the Socialist Workers Party tells you unexamined.

I used to buy the line you espouse so there is hope for you.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Professor Science
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Post by Professor Science »

One problem with market economies that can not be dealt without interference is the matter of externalities, when some of the marginal benefit/cost is not given/paid to the customer/business (all respectively).

Take for example an effective car alarm/retrieval system. Part of the benefit of it would be car jackers become more reluctant to steal cars, this benefits even non-owners of the system, so without some form of incentive the market reaches equilibrium before the ideal point.

This is to say nothing of non-perfectly competitive markers (i.e. all of them)
The pursuit of knowledge is in the best of interest of all mankind.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Professor Science wrote:One problem with market economies that can not be dealt without interference is the matter of externalities, when some of the marginal benefit/cost is not given/paid to the customer/business (all respectively).

Take for example an effective car alarm/retrieval system. Part of the benefit of it would be car jackers become more reluctant to steal cars, this benefits even non-owners of the system, so without some form of incentive the market reaches equilibrium before the ideal point.

This is to say nothing of non-perfectly competitive markers (i.e. all of them)
Ah. Yes. Market systems are not perfect. What a surprise.

Now how do they stack up against other REAL systems?

For instance how does the more market oriented American system compare to the less market oriented European system?

http://www.classicalvalues.com/archives ... onomi.html

http://www.classicalvalues.com/archives ... break.html

We could put the market systems against klepltocracies: Zimbabwe.

Or socialist/communist systems like the USSR/China/North Korea.

There is a universal metric to tell on an objective basis what the best real system in the world is: ask people: given a choice of any where in the world you would want to live where would be your preference? Almost every one's second choice would be the USA. And a large number would make the USA their first choice. These days we practically beat them off with a stick and still they come.

Of course there is no perfect information. It is how people profit. In fact Hayek in 1944 said that the failure of non-market economies is exactly caused by lack of information (i.e. hidden knowledge). So in fact market economies are the very best in operating in the real world where perfect information is not possible. Division of labor and all that.

The USA deals pretty well with the externalities with private property and the tort system for redress of externality losses. Where private property is absent or limited the problem of externalities is worse: USSR, China, South Africa, etc.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Professor Science
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Post by Professor Science »

I would by no means choose "USA" easily half the states would be horrible, my list would go Iowa, because i grew up there, Netherlands, Scandanavia, New Zealand, Japan and then I'd start considering other parts of the US.
The pursuit of knowledge is in the best of interest of all mankind.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Professor Science wrote:I would by no means choose "USA" easily half the states would be horrible, my list would go Iowa, because i grew up there, Netherlands, Scandanavia, New Zealand, Japan and then I'd start considering other parts of the US.
You are just one data point out of billions.

Look at the real world.

Consider this: IEC is technology that could be developed almost any where.

So who is making efforts in that area:

1. USA
2. Japan
3. Australia

And that is the whole list.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Professor Science
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Post by Professor Science »

It would be handy if we actually could quantify happiness or human welfare some how. Then we'd have something to actually steer for. The current problem is that the $ metric doesn't actually stand for anything, it in itself is worthless and only because everyone agreed can it do anything. Watt's might be something to consider, but that doesn't help much. Applying a few kilowatts to a sick person directly doesn't do much besides boiling them slowly.
The pursuit of knowledge is in the best of interest of all mankind.

Average Joe
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Post by Average Joe »

MSimon, You need to write a book. Your intellect and good sense and writing ability are sorely needed. Have you ever thought about it?
Joe

Professor Science
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Post by Professor Science »

Average Joe wrote:MSimon, You need to write a book.
Any chance that might be because he agrees with you?
The pursuit of knowledge is in the best of interest of all mankind.

Keegan
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Post by Keegan »

MSimon wrote: Consider this: IEC is technology that could be developed almost any where.

So who is making efforts in that area:

3. Australia
What exactly are we doing again ?

Last time i checked i didnt find much happening in Oz

Some good people. Absolutely no money.
Purity is Power

rj40
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Post by rj40 »

I don’t think there are any companies that could stop this if it works. Like I have posted before, there is too much money and prestige involved. Take the average person and transport them back in time to 1977 into the body of a 40 year old IBM executive. Once they realize where and who they are (and assuming they didn’t go nuts), what are the odds they would:

1. Try and convince IBM to smash this little company called Microsoft. Or this other little company called Apple. The IBM business model must prevail! Yeah right.
2. Try and convince IBM to move toward what these folks were doing. Some people did. It didn’t work.
3. Try and join MS or Apple offering to work for little pay, but lots of stock. Maybe offering to clean the coffee pots as well as drop interesting ideas about object oriented programming, windows GIU displays, and something called a “mouse,” and etc.
4. Try and start his/her own company knowing what he/she does about the coming decades.

Except when it comes to energy, most people get the benefits of clean abundant power. If Polywell pans out, this is 1977 and EMC2 is the next Microsoft or Apple (maybe, or maybe it’s some kid in India with a really good idea on how to build and distribute these things). And everyone knows it. The person or groups who can crack this very tough problem will become very wealthy and, as a bonus, their kids will love them. Most high-level executives are at least partially driven by ego. Imagine the chance to make a whole lot of money and yet still be loved by people all over the world. No if this works, the bag is out of the cat. Executives from many energy companies will be jumping ship faster than you can say let's jump ship. They will be starting their own Polywell companies. Remember the internet in 1996?

However, I can think of a few Green NGOs that might work to stop this. Unless they come up with other problems (most will) to fight against, some of them will be in dire straights.

Nanos
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Post by Nanos »

> Selling to the poor is not the same
> as stealing from them

My sentence was rather brief on the subject, I shall expand it a little;

My concerns are not particularly with selling items to them, but aspects such as;

Property, renting/buying.

Wages, being rather low.


Those on low wages for example end up either paying a high percentage of their income on unnecessarly high rents, or on a mortgage on a property whose value is artifically way higher than its actual build cost.

The rich have good control of the property market (At least in the UK where we sold off a large chunk of our government social housing.) and also the ability to drive the value of wages down. (Which after all, is mainly about exploiting the labour of someone else for your own benefit, so always in essence steals from someone below you.)


> need to study the subject of economics more
> in depth

Agreed!

I'm just a beginner I admit, and value the input here as there are few places where people are actually willing to talk about the subject in depth, so I am listening.


> Socialist Workers Party

I don't think I've actually read anything of theirs, I try and avoid listening to much political stuff so it doesn't colour my analysing of evidence and thinking, eg. I tend to base much of my thoughts on how I think the system works based on experience and listening to others experiences. (I have both very poor and very rich friends/associates who are very honest/open about what they do, so gives me at times I consider a view of society that many do not see. eg. how many landlords do you know admit to having raised the bulk of their wealth from drug dealing!)


> there is hope for you

:-) I'm willing to listen and learn.


> Where private property is absent or limited
> the problem of externalities is worse

I'm interested to know more about how the lack of private property effects things, eg. if you had a town say where all the property was owned by the state and rented out very cheaply to people, how would that be a bad thing ?


> Your intellect and good sense and writing
> ability are sorely needed

Agreed, though I much prefer to the one2one of forum learning than just reading a one way book, books are so old fashioned :-)

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Keegan wrote:
MSimon wrote: Consider this: IEC is technology that could be developed almost any where.

So who is making efforts in that area:

3. Australia
What exactly are we doing again ?

Last time i checked i didnt find much happening in Oz

Some good people. Absolutely no money.
In all of Europe there is not even a program. Oz actually can move ahead quickly (it has the skeleton in place) if WB-7 is positive.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Remember the internet in 1996?
Yes I do. At the beginning of that year I had been on the 'net for about a week. There were already 20 million 'net heads and I thought - geeze - I'm really late to the party. My #1 son (13 at the time) and I worked round the clock for 3 straight days (16 hour shifts) to get the interface working.

In '76 I was one of the first few thousands with a home computer.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

nanos,

May I suggest reading "The Road to Serfdom" by Hayek. - note: the State ALWAYS mismanages the property it owns due to lack of local knowledge and indifference due to the fact that it can always make up losses by raising taxes.

Also

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=He ... tnG=Search

and

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... perty.html

Property in private hands is the most powerful engine for economic growth known to man.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Nanos
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Post by Nanos »

Thanks for those information sources, digesting.

I would be interested to hear yours/others thoughts on the issue of how rising property prices eventually push the majority of the poor out of being able to ever afford to buy a home on minimum wage.

Leaving only the rented sector, where landlords are able to charge top dollar and suck a a huge amount of wealth from the workers, way above the actual maintence costs of the property.

With planning restrictions apparently not releasing land to provide cheaper housing, you end up with a lack of supply and lots of demand. (Particularly if you allow in immigration above emigration levels.)

I have great difficulty seeing how the poor benefit from all of this, if they are able to afford to pay a mortage, again their income from real work pays for borrowing the money several times over in the lifetime of the loan. It all seems artifical to me in an effort to extract wealth from the mayor part of society which does the physical labour to the ones with the paper money who work rather less for their wealth..


My thoughts to provide a town where everyone rents cheaply (Enough to pay maintence say.) from the state would leave the majority of the poor with a large disposible income to invest/spend as they like, rather than it all ending up with the money men.

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