Question for EMC2 crew: Please describe the data embargo.

[Skipjack]

Wow, I would consider this a very fair contract. If it is true, I lift my hat to the navy (is that the right way to say that phrase?).
It is very exciting technology and it is worth a lot. The Navy is taking a risk with that money and investing it into this research and all they ask in return is to use it royalty free. That is - for a military organization- quite fair in my book.
I can totally see where the navy in particular would benefit from this (to power submarines and aircraft carriers and maybe larger freigattes).
I could see other forces benefit from it as well though, particularily the Air Force, probably mostly through space related uses, even though I have a vague picture of a flying "monster" in my head that is flying at hypersonic speeds and powered by some polywell propulsion systems
Not to sure about the army, but then they have a use for anything somewhere, dont they?

[bsmythe]

Given that it is a Navy contract, the data obtained may be classified and may never be publishable in an open forum; one of the pitfalls in accepting the filth lucre.

From what I know about the history of the project and Dr Bussard's work, I would be highly doubtful if any of it is classified. The following are the reasons why:
1) All fusion power research was declassified (back in the 50s I believe).
2) If the program results were classified, then Dr B would not have been able to disclose what he had. He also talked about writing a paper with all of the results of his work under the publishing embargo which would definitely have been out if the work was classified. Classification is not like copyright where you can't copyright information, facts or data, only a specific embodyment of that information. Any information or knowledge derived from classified sources is itself restricted. Dr B could not have released the info he did or contemplated releasing a compilation of his research like he did if it was classified.
3) Earlier reports from EMC2 are online in the The Defense Technical Information Center (DTIC) website. If they had classified the program, they would likely have classified these too or at least yanked them from public distribution.

Accepting Navy funding would not be a basis for classifying the information BTW. They can classify anything that they want weather they pay for it or not. Paying for it does, however, give them the power of paying the piper and being able to call the tune.

So what exactly is the embargo? Dr B said he simply asked his program manager if they should publish any more and was told no, now that they had things working to keep quiet. From the events of the past few years, I would say that is all there is to it. They then also stopped "publishing" themselves by not submitting the program reports to the DTIC.

As for getting around the embargo, that may be as simple as filing a FOIA request for the any reports submitted by EMC2 as part of their contracts. The copying fees might get expensive though. Keep in mind though that non classified does not automatically mean releasable under FOIA. The reports could be for official use only which means don't give the information out but there is no criminal penalty for disclosing it. The Navy might also refuse to release it under one of the statutory exemptions. Even if they withhold some or all of the material, that can be appealed and it gives you an idea where you stand on access.

By the way, I am a former Air Force Officer so I have more than a passing familiarity with the classification if information.

[cuddihy]

Speaking as someone who has to deal with DOD budgeting, I can see where it might be desireable to keep this program as low-profile as possible until there is something concrete to report. Otherwise it might attract unwanted attention, especially in times of tight budgets.
And by concrete I mean a peer-reviewed article reporting on the actual near-term prospects for breakeven fusion from a scaled-up WB-100. Barring that, unless the data produced by WB-7 is otherwise useful for illuminating some heretofore unexplored aspect of plasma physics, I suspect this line of research may come to a quiet end, at least from the Navy side.

Of course with fusion nuts like this crowd (me included) over-analyzing every scrap of information available, it'd be tough to keep it low profile in any way if it was successful in that kind of big way. And I'm pretty sure that wouldn't qualify as "nuanced," either.

[scareduck]

Barring that, unless the data produced by WB-7 is otherwise useful for illuminating some heretofore unexplored aspect of plasma physics, I suspect this line of research may come to a quiet end, at least from the Navy side.

Just so. I hate to say it, but that's where I think things lie.

[MSimon]

Barring that, unless the data produced by WB-7 is otherwise useful for illuminating some heretofore unexplored aspect of plasma physics, I suspect this line of research may come to a quiet end, at least from the Navy side.

Just so. I hate to say it, but that's where I think things lie.

My plan is to crank up the publicity machine again around 1 Feb. 2009 if we don't hear anything. Barring a wave off from Rick N.

Time for the election results to settle and a new Congress installed.

Simon

[choff]

It would suck if the peer review was good but the whole project got line-itemed again, this time because of the current financial crunch.

[MSimon]

It would suck if the peer review was good but the whole project got line-itemed again, this time because of the current financial crunch.

We have beaten that before.

[tombo]

There is ALWAYS some kind of financial crunch or another.
And, those with the right connections ALWAYS seem to get their pet projects funded anyhow.

[Roger]

the whole project got line-itemed again,

I can all but ensure if Rick needs 20 million, he'll get it. We've done enough outreach to very likely see that happen.

WHAT IS NEXT ON THE AGENDA

Somebody said they wanted to build a WB with about 5ft or 6ft coils.

what can we do to go around the embargo? How can I help?

Gimme 25 million. In fact gimme 50 million, I'll give you 2 brand new shiny WBs, one LN2 cooled- 30cm coils, Simon are you available ? And another WB with 5ft coils.

[Aero]

Roger -
Is there any rule that says that EMC2 must continue to accept the Navy's money? How much would it cost to recreate the WB-7 project, perhaps bigger and better, but still WB-7? If EMC2 is confident the the WB-7 results justify spending $200 million on WB-100, what would be the down side of going to the venture capital world with a proposal to recreate WB-7? That is, aside from the fact that tax dollars are cheaper than venture capital.
Actually, I know the down side associated with giving up control to the venture capitalists, and that is probably down side enough.

[Roger]

Roger -
Is there any rule that says that EMC2 must continue to accept the Navy's money?

My guess, none.

How much would it cost to recreate the WB-7 project, perhaps bigger and better, but still WB-7?

Simons LN2 cooled WB7x might be doable for 10-20 million. WHich is why I said I could build 2 for 50 million, 15 for Simons WB-7x and 35 for WB-100.

If EMC2 is confident the the WB-7 results justify spending $200 million on WB-100,

WB-100 will not cost 200 million, not by far. My guess as little as 20 million. Call it 20-35. 200 million was for a complete research project leading to proof of concept, multiple devices in a step by step approach.

what would be the down side of going to the venture capital world with a proposal to recreate WB-7?

Why WB-7, WB-7 cost 1.8 million. Rick wants WB-100, thats what he should get.

That is, aside from the fact that tax dollars are cheaper than venture capital.
Actually, I know the down side associated with giving up control to the venture capitalists, and that is probably down side enough.

I had 3 million in VC lined up after WB-6, to build WB-7, Bussard nixed it, I assume for good reason. Simons WB-7x could be built by U of Wisconsin or Urbana, while Rick builds WB-100, If folks are concerned enough to speed up the process by building 2 parallel projects.

[MSimon]

Roger,

Yes. I'm available and in close contact with Rick so anything I'm charged to do will be done in loose or tight co-operation with EMC2 depending on circumstances.