Talk-Polywell.org

Posted: **Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:46 am**

cuboctahedron, electron plasma core:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdR4LPbzKI8

Posted: **Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:57 am**

rjaypeters wrote:6-coil circular six coils:

...

Regular polygons? As good as I can do.

3 decimal places (1 mm) should be plenty precise, i would think. any preferred scaling parameter? charge/current ratio? (on that note, anybody know how to convert "voltage on the grid" to charge density (columbs/meter))?

Posted: **Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:05 am**

i hate to say it rj, but from the simulation it looks like you've got at least one of the current loops backwards. the electrons spiral and go in the same direction which suggests you have a pair of facing (e.g. opposite) coils with the same polarity.

(my first attempt had problems like this too, btw.)

Posted: **Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:26 am**

Huh. I'll check, but I thought I was careful to maintain counter-clockwise as seen from outside! Apologies and thanks.

Edit:

Code: Select all

16
0.0, 1.127, 1.273, -0.431, 1.041, 1.273
-0.431, 1.041, 1.273, -0.797, 0.797, 1.273
-0.797, 0.797, 1.273, -1.041, 0.431, 1.273
-1.041, 0.431, 1.273, -1.127, 0.0, 1.273
-1.127, 0.0, 1.273, -1.041, -0.431, 1.273
-1.041, -0.431, 1.273, -0.797, -0.797, 1.273
-0.797, -0.797, 1.273, -0.431, -1.041, 1.273
-0.431, -1.041, 1.273, 0.0, -1.127, 1.273,
0.0, -1.127, 1.273, 0.431, -1.041, 1.273
0.431, -1.041, 1.273, 0.797, -0.797, 1.273
0.797, -0.797, 1.273, 1.041, -0.431, 1.273
1.041, -0.431, 1.273, 1.127, 0.0, 1.273
1.127, 0.0, 1.273, 1.041, 0.431, 1.273
1.041, 0.431, 1.273, 0.797, 0.797, 1.273
0.797, 0.797, 1.273, 0.431, 1.041, 1.273
0.431, 1.041, 1.273, 0.0, 1.127, 1.273
16
-1.273, 1.127, 0.0, -1.273, 1.041, -0.431
-1.273, 1.041, -0.431, -1.273, 0.797, -0.797
-1.273, 0.797, -0.797, -1.273, 0.431, -1.041
-1.273, 0.431, -1.041, -1.273, 0.0, -1.127
-1.273, 0.0, -1.127, -1.273, -0.431, -1.041
-1.273, -0.431, -1.041, -1.273, -0.797, -0.797
-1.273, -0.797, -0.797, -1.273, -1.041, -0.431
-1.273, -1.041, -0.431, -1.273, -1.127, 0.0
-1.273, -1.127, 0.0, -1.273, -1.041, 0.431
-1.273, -1.041, 0.431, -1.273, -0.797, 0.797
-1.273, -0.797, 0.797, -1.273, -0.431, 1.041
-1.273, -0.431, 1.041, -1.273, 0.0, 1.127
-1.273, 0.0, 1.127, -1.273, 0.431, 1.041,
-1.273, 0.431, 1.041, -1.273, 0.797, 0.797
-1.273, 0.797, 0.797, -1.273, 1.041, 0.431
-1.273, 1.041, 0.431, -1.273, 1.127, 0.0
16
0.0, 1.127, -1.273, 0.431, 1.041, -1.273
0.431, 1.041, -1.273, 0.797, 0.797, -1.273
0.797, 0.797, -1.273, 1.041, 0.431, -1.273
1.041, 0.431, -1.273, 1.127, 0.0, -1.273
1.127, 0.0, -1.273, 1.041, -0.431, -1.273
1.041, -0.431, -1.273, 0.797, -0.797, -1.273
0.797, -0.797, -1.273, 0.431, -1.041, -1.273
0.431, -1.041, -1.273, 0.0, -1.127, -1.273
0.0, -1.127, -1.273, -0.431, -1.041, -1.273
-0.431, -1.041, -1.273, -0.797, -0.797, -1.273
-0.797, -0.797, -1.273, -1.041, -0.431, -1.273
-1.041, -0.431, -1.273, -1.127, 0.0, -1.273
-1.127, 0.0, -1.273, -1.041, 0.431, -1.273
-1.041, 0.431, -1.273, -0.797, 0.797, -1.273
-0.797, 0.797, -1.273, -0.431, 1.041, -1.273
-0.431, 1.041, -1.273, 0.0, 1.127, -1.273
16
1.273, 1.127, 0.0, 1.273, 1.041, 0.431
1.273, 1.041, 0.431, 1.273, 0.797, 0.797
1.273, 0.797, 0.797, 1.273, 0.431, 1.041
1.273, 0.431, 1.041, 1.273, 0.0, 1.127,
1.273, 0.0, 1.127, 1.273, -0.431, 1.041
1.273, -0.431, 1.041, 1.273, -0.797, 0.797
1.273, -0.797, 0.797, 1.273, -1.041, 0.431
1.273, -1.041, 0.431, 1.273, -1.127, 0.0
1.273, -1.127, 0.0, 1.273, -1.041, -0.431
1.273, -1.041, -0.431, 1.273, -0.797, -0.797
1.273, -0.797, -0.797, 1.273, -0.431, -1.041
1.273, -0.431, -1.041, 1.273, 0.0, -1.127
1.273, 0.0, -1.127, 1.273, 0.431, -1.041
1.273, 0.431, -1.041, 1.273, 0.797, -0.797
1.273, 0.797, -0.797, 1.273, 1.041, -0.431
1.273, 1.041, -0.431, 1.273, 1.127, 0.0
16
0.0, 1.273, 1.127, 0.431, 1.273, 1.041
0.431, 1.273, 1.041, 0.797, 1,273, 0.797
0.797, 1,273, 0.797, 1.041, 1.273, 0.431
1.041, 1.273, 0.431, 1.127, 1.273, 0.0
1.127, 1.273, 0.0, 1.041, 1.273, -0.431
1.041, 1.273, -0.431, 0.797, 1.273, -0.797
0.797, 1.273, -0.797, 0.431, 1.273, -1.041
0.431, 1.273, -1.041, 0.0, 1.273, -1.127
0.0, 1.273, -1.127, -0.431, 1.273, -1.041
-0.431, 1.273, -1.041, -0.797, 1.273, -0.797
-0.797, 1.273, -0.797, -1.041, 1.273, -0.431
-1.041, 1.273, -0.431, -1.127, 1.273, 0.0
-1.127, 1.273, 0.0, -1.041, 1.273, 0.431
-1.041, 1.273, 0.431, -0.797, 1.273, 0.797
-0.797, 1.273, 0.797, -0.431, 1.273, 1.041
-0.431, 1.273, 1.041, 0.0, 1.273, 1.127
16
0.0, -1.273, 1.127, -0.431, -1.273, 1.041
-0.431, -1.273, 1.041, -0.797, -1.273, 0.797,
-0.797, -1.273, 0.797, -1.041, -1.273, 0.431
-1.041, -1.273, 0.431, -1.127, -1.273, 0.0
-1.127, -1.273, 0.0, -1.041, -1.273, -0.431
-1.041, -1.273, -0.431, -0.797, -1.273, -0.797
-0.797, -1.273, -0.797, -0.431, -1.273, -1.041
-0.431, -1.273, -1.041, 0.0, -1.273, -1.127
0.0, -1.273, -1.127, 0.431, -1.273, -1.041
0.431, -1.273, -1.041, 0.797, -1.273, -0.797
0.797, -1.273, -0.797, 1.041, -1.273, -0.431
1.041, -1.273, -0.431, 1.127, -1.273, 0.0
1.127, -1.273, 0.0, 1.041, -1.273, 0.431
1.041, -1.273, 0.431, 0.797, -1.273, 0.797
0.797, -1.273, 0.797, 0.431, -1.273, 1.041
0.431, -1.273, 1.041, 0.0, -1.273, 1.127

100% checked. Found one error in third(?) ring. Lesson learned: I won't post until I do a 100% check.

Also, if some wish to join the fun, I will happy to post my models.

Posted: **Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:41 pm**

still something wrong with your y = +/- 1.273 coils. i ran facing pairs of coils, and all the other pairs look correct. i tried inverting one or the other coil and it still didn't work right.

Posted: **Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:03 pm**

maybe start w/my cuboctahedron (every 4 lines is a coil), which i know is correct 'cause i've tested, and push the coils out from the center to get the desired coil separation, then slice each segment into 2, then 4.

i'm going to see if i can get particle sources and sinks working over the weekend. then we can actually see electrons with the right KE per radial displacement.

Posted: **Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:09 pm**

Frustrating, I'll send some tests soon.

Posted: **Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:27 pm**

i just made a 16-gon approximation of a wb-6 with unit-radius coils and no coil separation. just tell me what the distance of a coil should be from the center to get the desired separation and i'll plug it in using "find and replace".

Code: Select all

//============ top, back, and right coils
-1.0000000, 1.000000a, 0.0000000,-0.9238795, 1.000000a, 0.3826834,-1
-0.9238795, 1.000000a, 0.3826834,-0.7071068, 1.000000a, 0.7071068,-1
-0.7071068, 1.000000a, 0.7071068,-0.3826834, 1.000000a, 0.9238795,-1
-0.3826834, 1.000000a, 0.9238795, 0.0000000, 1.000000a, 1.0000000,-1
 0.0000000, 1.000000a, 1.0000000, 0.3826834, 1.000000a, 0.9238795,-1
 0.3826834, 1.000000a, 0.9238795, 0.7071068, 1.000000a, 0.7071068,-1
 0.7071068, 1.000000a, 0.7071068, 0.9238795, 1.000000a, 0.3826834,-1
 0.9238795, 1.000000a, 0.3826834, 1.0000000, 1.000000a, 0.0000000,-1
 1.0000000, 1.000000a, 0.0000000, 0.9238795, 1.000000a,-0.3826834,-1
 0.9238795, 1.000000a,-0.3826834, 0.7071068, 1.000000a,-0.7071068,-1
 0.7071068, 1.000000a,-0.7071068, 0.3826834, 1.000000a,-0.9238795,-1
 0.3826834, 1.000000a,-0.9238795, 0.0000000, 1.000000a,-1.0000000,-1
 0.0000000, 1.000000a,-1.0000000,-0.3826834, 1.000000a,-0.9238795,-1
-0.3826834, 1.000000a,-0.9238795,-0.7071068, 1.000000a,-0.7071068,-1
-0.7071068, 1.000000a,-0.7071068,-0.9238795, 1.000000a,-0.3826834,-1
-0.9238795, 1.000000a,-0.3826834,-1.0000000, 1.000000a, 0.0000000,-1

-1.0000000, 0.0000000, 1.000000a,-0.9238795, 0.3826834, 1.000000a
-0.9238795, 0.3826834, 1.000000a,-0.7071068, 0.7071068, 1.000000a
-0.7071068, 0.7071068, 1.000000a,-0.3826834, 0.9238795, 1.000000a
-0.3826834, 0.9238795, 1.000000a, 0.0000000, 1.0000000, 1.000000a
 0.0000000, 1.0000000, 1.000000a, 0.3826834, 0.9238795, 1.000000a
 0.3826834, 0.9238795, 1.000000a, 0.7071068, 0.7071068, 1.000000a
 0.7071068, 0.7071068, 1.000000a, 0.9238795, 0.3826834, 1.000000a
 0.9238795, 0.3826834, 1.000000a, 1.0000000, 0.0000000, 1.000000a
 1.0000000, 0.0000000, 1.000000a, 0.9238795,-0.3826834, 1.000000a
 0.9238795,-0.3826834, 1.000000a, 0.7071068,-0.7071068, 1.000000a
 0.7071068,-0.7071068, 1.000000a, 0.3826834,-0.9238795, 1.000000a
 0.3826834,-0.9238795, 1.000000a, 0.0000000,-1.0000000, 1.000000a
 0.0000000,-1.0000000, 1.000000a,-0.3826834,-0.9238795, 1.000000a
-0.3826834,-0.9238795, 1.000000a,-0.7071068,-0.7071068, 1.000000a
-0.7071068,-0.7071068, 1.000000a,-0.9238795,-0.3826834, 1.000000a
-0.9238795,-0.3826834, 1.000000a,-1.0000000, 0.0000000, 1.000000a

 1.000000a,-1.0000000, 0.0000000, 1.000000a,-0.9238795, 0.3826834
 1.000000a,-0.9238795, 0.3826834, 1.000000a,-0.7071068, 0.7071068
 1.000000a,-0.7071068, 0.7071068, 1.000000a,-0.3826834, 0.9238795
 1.000000a,-0.3826834, 0.9238795, 1.000000a, 0.0000000, 1.0000000
 1.000000a, 0.0000000, 1.0000000, 1.000000a, 0.3826834, 0.9238795
 1.000000a, 0.3826834, 0.9238795, 1.000000a, 0.7071068, 0.7071068
 1.000000a, 0.7071068, 0.7071068, 1.000000a, 0.9238795, 0.3826834
 1.000000a, 0.9238795, 0.3826834, 1.000000a, 1.0000000, 0.0000000
 1.000000a, 1.0000000, 0.0000000, 1.000000a, 0.9238795,-0.3826834
 1.000000a, 0.9238795,-0.3826834, 1.000000a, 0.7071068,-0.7071068
 1.000000a, 0.7071068,-0.7071068, 1.000000a, 0.3826834,-0.9238795
 1.000000a, 0.3826834,-0.9238795, 1.000000a, 0.0000000,-1.0000000
 1.000000a, 0.0000000,-1.0000000, 1.000000a,-0.3826834,-0.9238795
 1.000000a,-0.3826834,-0.9238795, 1.000000a,-0.7071068,-0.7071068
 1.000000a,-0.7071068,-0.7071068, 1.000000a,-0.9238795,-0.3826834
 1.000000a,-0.9238795,-0.3826834, 1.000000a,-1.0000000, 0.0000000

//============ bottom, front, and left coils
-1.0000000,-1.000000a, 0.0000000,-0.9238795,-1.000000a, 0.3826834
-0.9238795,-1.000000a, 0.3826834,-0.7071068,-1.000000a, 0.7071068
-0.7071068,-1.000000a, 0.7071068,-0.3826834,-1.000000a, 0.9238795
-0.3826834,-1.000000a, 0.9238795, 0.0000000,-1.000000a, 1.0000000
 0.0000000,-1.000000a, 1.0000000, 0.3826834,-1.000000a, 0.9238795
 0.3826834,-1.000000a, 0.9238795, 0.7071068,-1.000000a, 0.7071068
 0.7071068,-1.000000a, 0.7071068, 0.9238795,-1.000000a, 0.3826834
 0.9238795,-1.000000a, 0.3826834, 1.0000000,-1.000000a, 0.0000000
 1.0000000,-1.000000a, 0.0000000, 0.9238795,-1.000000a,-0.3826834
 0.9238795,-1.000000a,-0.3826834, 0.7071068,-1.000000a,-0.7071068
 0.7071068,-1.000000a,-0.7071068, 0.3826834,-1.000000a,-0.9238795
 0.3826834,-1.000000a,-0.9238795, 0.0000000,-1.000000a,-1.0000000
 0.0000000,-1.000000a,-1.0000000,-0.3826834,-1.000000a,-0.9238795
-0.3826834,-1.000000a,-0.9238795,-0.7071068,-1.000000a,-0.7071068
-0.7071068,-1.000000a,-0.7071068,-0.9238795,-1.000000a,-0.3826834
-0.9238795,-1.000000a,-0.3826834,-1.0000000,-1.000000a, 0.0000000

-1.0000000, 0.0000000,-1.000000a,-0.9238795, 0.3826834,-1.000000a,-1
-0.9238795, 0.3826834,-1.000000a,-0.7071068, 0.7071068,-1.000000a,-1
-0.7071068, 0.7071068,-1.000000a,-0.3826834, 0.9238795,-1.000000a,-1
-0.3826834, 0.9238795,-1.000000a, 0.0000000, 1.0000000,-1.000000a,-1
 0.0000000, 1.0000000,-1.000000a, 0.3826834, 0.9238795,-1.000000a,-1
 0.3826834, 0.9238795,-1.000000a, 0.7071068, 0.7071068,-1.000000a,-1
 0.7071068, 0.7071068,-1.000000a, 0.9238795, 0.3826834,-1.000000a,-1
 0.9238795, 0.3826834,-1.000000a, 1.0000000, 0.0000000,-1.000000a,-1
 1.0000000, 0.0000000,-1.000000a, 0.9238795,-0.3826834,-1.000000a,-1
 0.9238795,-0.3826834,-1.000000a, 0.7071068,-0.7071068,-1.000000a,-1
 0.7071068,-0.7071068,-1.000000a, 0.3826834,-0.9238795,-1.000000a,-1
 0.3826834,-0.9238795,-1.000000a, 0.0000000,-1.0000000,-1.000000a,-1
 0.0000000,-1.0000000,-1.000000a,-0.3826834,-0.9238795,-1.000000a,-1
-0.3826834,-0.9238795,-1.000000a,-0.7071068,-0.7071068,-1.000000a,-1
-0.7071068,-0.7071068,-1.000000a,-0.9238795,-0.3826834,-1.000000a,-1
-0.9238795,-0.3826834,-1.000000a,-1.0000000, 0.0000000,-1.000000a,-1

-1.000000a,-1.0000000, 0.0000000,-1.000000a,-0.9238795, 0.3826834,-1
-1.000000a,-0.9238795, 0.3826834,-1.000000a,-0.7071068, 0.7071068,-1
-1.000000a,-0.7071068, 0.7071068,-1.000000a,-0.3826834, 0.9238795,-1
-1.000000a,-0.3826834, 0.9238795,-1.000000a, 0.0000000, 1.0000000,-1
-1.000000a, 0.0000000, 1.0000000,-1.000000a, 0.3826834, 0.9238795,-1
-1.000000a, 0.3826834, 0.9238795,-1.000000a, 0.7071068, 0.7071068,-1
-1.000000a, 0.7071068, 0.7071068,-1.000000a, 0.9238795, 0.3826834,-1
-1.000000a, 0.9238795, 0.3826834,-1.000000a, 1.0000000, 0.0000000,-1
-1.000000a, 1.0000000, 0.0000000,-1.000000a, 0.9238795,-0.3826834,-1
-1.000000a, 0.9238795,-0.3826834,-1.000000a, 0.7071068,-0.7071068,-1
-1.000000a, 0.7071068,-0.7071068,-1.000000a, 0.3826834,-0.9238795,-1
-1.000000a, 0.3826834,-0.9238795,-1.000000a, 0.0000000,-1.0000000,-1
-1.000000a, 0.0000000,-1.0000000,-1.000000a,-0.3826834,-0.9238795,-1
-1.000000a,-0.3826834,-0.9238795,-1.000000a,-0.7071068,-0.7071068,-1
-1.000000a,-0.7071068,-0.7071068,-1.000000a,-0.9238795,-0.3826834,-1
-1.000000a,-0.9238795,-0.3826834,-1.000000a,-1.0000000, 0.0000000,-1

and just for the hell of it,

Code: Select all

//vertices of a quadrant of a unit 32-gon:
 0.0000000, 1.0000000, 0.0000000
 0.1950903, 0.9807853, 0.0000000
 0.3826834, 0.9238795, 0.0000000
 0.5555702, 0.8314696, 0.0000000
 0.7071068, 0.7071068, 0.0000000
 0.8314696, 0.5555702, 0.0000000
 0.9238795, 0.3826834, 0.0000000
 0.9807853, 0.1950903, 0.0000000
 1.0000000, 0.0000000, 0.0000000

which, judging from this picture, is all the precision we could ever possibly need.

Posted: **Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:03 pm**

k, i made a 32-gon unit wb-6.

Code: Select all

 0.000000a, 0.0000000, 1.0000000, 0.000000a, 0.1950903, 0.9807853,-1
 0.000000a, 0.1950903, 0.9807853, 0.000000a, 0.3826834, 0.9238795,-1
 0.000000a, 0.3826834, 0.9238795, 0.000000a, 0.5555702, 0.8314696,-1
...

what should 0.000000a = ? (the major radius of the containment sphere) what should the spatial scale be? other parameters (electron gun distance from center, initial electron velocity, etc., coil current density, coil charge density, etc.)

Posted: **Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:36 pm**

+- Y coils at cardinal points only.

Code: Select all

4
0.0, -1.273, 1.127, -1.127, -1.273, 0.0
-1.127, -1.273, 0.0, 0.0, -1.273, -1.127
0.0, -1.273, -1.127, 1.127, -1.273, 0.0
1.127, -1.273, 0.0, 0.0, -1.273, 1.127
4
0.0, 1.273, 1.127, 1.127, 1.273, 0.0
1.127, 1.273, 0.0, 0.0, 1.273, -1.127
0.0, 1.273, -1.127, -1.127, 1.273, 0.0
-1.127, 1.273, 0.0, 0.0, 1.273, 1.127

Cardinal points at a different distance from origin.

-y coil:
0.0, -2, 1.127 top of compass
-1.127, -2, 0.0 west
0.0, -2, -1.127 south
1.127, -2, 0.0 east

+y coil:
0.0, 2, 1.127 north
1.127, 2, 0.0 west
0.0, 2, -1.127 south
-1.127, 2, 0.0 east

Code: Select all

4
0.0, -2, 1.127, -1.127, -2, 0.0
-1.127, -2, 0.0, 0.0, -2, -1.127
0.0, -2, -1.127, 1.127, -2, 0.0
1.127, -2, 0.0, 0.0, -2, 1.127
4
0.0, 2, 1.127, 1.127, 2, 0.0
1.127, 2, 0.0, 0.0, 2, -1.127
0.0, 2, -1.127, -1.127, 2, 0.0
-1.127, 2, 0.0, 0.0, 2, 1.127

Triangles:

Code: Select all

3
0.0, -1.273, 1.127, -1.041, -1.273, -0.431
-1.041, -1.273, -0.431, 1.041, -1.273, -0.431
1.041, -1.273, -0.431, 0.0, -1.273, 1.127
3
0.0, 1.273, 1.127, 1.041, 1.273, -0.431
1.041, 1.273, -0.431, -1.041, 1.273, -0.431
-1.041, 1.273, -0.431, 0.0, 1.273, 1.127

I am using a sphere 1.5m in radius and the coil centers are 1.273m from the origin (the number that doesn't change in the examples above).

Posted: **Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:44 pm**

and the coil radius is 1.127 this for a unit coil radius, their centers should be 1.273/1.127 from the origin?

Posted: **Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:41 pm**

wb-6 style, distance from coil midplane to origin 1.1 times coil radius. (giving a decent amount of coil separation) electrons start as a hollow sphere. you can make out some weak line cusps due to the coil separation and the fact that the coils are circular (actually 32-gons).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XALqpF25xOU

Posted: **Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:07 am**

happyjack27 wrote:and the coil radius is 1.127 this for a unit coil radius, their centers should be 1.273/1.127 from the origin?

Yes, but you knew that already.

Posted: **Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:34 am**

happyjack27 wrote:wb-6 style, distance from coil midplane to origin 1.1 times coil radius. (giving a decent amount of coil separation) electrons start as a hollow sphere. you can make out some weak line cusps due to the coil separation and the fact that the coils are circular (actually 32-gons).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XALqpF25xOU

Very Spikeyball. Nice.

Understood it is still a ways off. But you have definitely kicked open the door for using a GPU to sim a Whiffleball.

Posted: **Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:27 am**

Indeed, interesting simulation. The bright spikes with only faint (?) bridges between the corner (virtual point) cusps would support my assumption that these cusp losses are greater than the 'funny' linear cusps between the closest approaches of the magnets. Of course I realize that this is an evolving model and may change. In any case it is intriguing to see the shape in a rotatable 3 dimensional representation as opposed to a 2D representation. Good work and keep it up.

Dan Tibbets

Talk-Polywell.org

thread for segments files and parameters for simulation runs