electron density and distribution

Discuss how polywell fusion works; share theoretical questions and answers.

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mattman
Posts: 459
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 11:14 pm

Re: electron density and distribution

Post by mattman »

This gets at a big question. Is there a cloud structure or not? IDK the answer.

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The electrons are being held in by a magnetic field pressure and the cage voltage. They do not like being that close to a (-) center. The electron details can be related by the beta number. Here it is for WB6.

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For WB6, estimates are: the B-field is at ~1,000 Gauss, the bulk electron temperature is at ~2,500 eV and their density is one electron in 1E-19 meter^3 of space. Using these details we can look at the energy distribution Dan is describing:

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In the center, we hate radiation losses. Radiation scales as temperature^4. That means the colder the electrons, the better. In addition: the (+) and (-) mix together. So, we want allot of cold electrons and very few hot ions. Hence:

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Is this energy distribution possible? I do not know.

Kinetic theory has an estimate for mean free path. The math only works if the electrons have a bell curve of energy – which everyone is contesting.

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Magnetic pressure is the B-field^2. This is the same scaling as magnetic energy density. A MATLAB model of WB6 tells us the magnetic field pressure looks like this.

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Hence, the mean free path, beta number and temperature could change depending on where the particle is. But it is a hard case to make, because the electrons and ions are also hitting each other and devolving into a maxwellian mess. That wiener process is always working against structure.

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Does the cloud have structure or not? This is the critical question. We do not know. We need to scream and holler and get the money, manpower and equipment to figure this out. Many more people should be examining this. I think there is enough work for 20 independent groups writing peer-reviewed papers on this one question.

hanelyp
Posts: 2261
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: electron density and distribution

Post by hanelyp »

Of course the plasma has a structure. The question is what structure?

The shown matlab plot of magnetic pressure looks like a near zero beta setup. At "beta=1" the magnetic field is excluded from the center by plasma pressure, plasma pressure inside the wiffleball == magnetic pressure outside the wiffleball.
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D Tibbets
Posts: 2775
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:52 am

Re: electron density and distribution

Post by D Tibbets »

Still stuck on 2.5 KeV average electron temperature and a different ion energy and Maxwell Boltzman distributions. You need a better understanding of the potential well dynamics. The electrons enter the cusp with the KE equivalent to the accelerating potential, 12,000 Volts in later tests with WB6. Here things are foggy, but borrowing from electrical circuits. The initial hot electrons are driven by the potential the magrid, and creating the potential well with a few electrons is trivial. But to create a potential well that will not droop with additional ions in useful densities, you need to either increase the power available to the voltage driver (power supply) or you need to increase resistance to current drain. Resistance here is represented by the lifetime of the electrons. Only one pass represents very low resistance and would require tremendous power to the potential on the Magrid. 10,000 passes represents much higher resistance, and 100,000 passes (with recirculation) represents even better resistance equivalence.

There are two problems with increasing the power. First it eats into Q and secondly the difficulty of increasing the power is increasingly difficult. I don't know the relationship but I suspect it is log rhythmic. Based on Bussards comments in his Google talk, despite increasing the power to the surface of the magrid in WB5, the potential well grew only modestly. The effect of resistance to current flow was dominate. WB5 may have improved the electron containment (circuit resistance equivalent), but the ion resistance went down and in a plasma, both ions and electrons are mobile charge carriers, and there are limits on how much charge separation can be maintained.

Dan Tibbets
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To error is human... and I'm very human.

mattman
Posts: 459
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 11:14 pm

Re: electron density and distribution

Post by mattman »

Hello,

We are mainly agreeing here. Let me explain where this temperature distribution came from.

The average energy of 2,500 eV for the electrons comes from Bussards work. You can pull numbers from his paper.

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For sure, the numbers are estimates. But they are fine for modeling. The math checks for beta = 1.

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Hence, in WB6 a good estimate for electron temperature is 2,500 eV, one electron in 1E-19 meters^3 of space and field strength 1,000 Gauss.
I cannot see how the cloud would not thermalize.
key points:
- both ions and electrons are cycling between regions of higher and lower average kinetic energy, trading between kinetic and electric potential energy.
- the scattering cross section is higher at lower energies.
So particle energy does "thermalize", but to a spread closer to Maxwellian towards the lower energy region.
All plasma systems are trying to find equilibrium. All systems tend to a bell curve. We have lots of proof of this.


We can quibble over spread. I forsee four ideas:

1. The Mean Free Path. The distance a particle can travel before hits something. From kinetic theory it is estimated:

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2. The Columbic Logarithm. This is very similar to the mean free path. To find it, you pick a point. You find the Debye length here. Using this as a radius, you make a sphere inside the plasma. You count the number of particles in that sphere. The log of this is the columbic logarithm. For a typical plasma student it is a value from 12 – 20. It is connected to how the (+) and (-) charges in dense plasma electrostatically interact.

3. The Scattering Cross Section. This is the effective size of a particle in the plasma. It is a function of temperature.


4. The Whiffle Ball. I think this is very likely occurring. The plasma cloud likely has a “resistance” to the external ring field. On the particle level: an electron or ion will likely move to oppose the applied magnetic field. As hanelyp pointed out, this will likely change the magnetic field pressure. This would give rise to structure - I am not sure what kind.

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But these are tweaks. I am highly skeptical they would eliminate the bell curve.

I think the electron spread starts at the tens of eV and goes to 12,500 eV. The lower limit could be electrons made when the D2 ionized. The high limit is the maximum electron energy that can be held in. Hence, the spread for WB6 looks like this:

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Data would settle this. A film of electrons moving in the polywell would be key. We would know temperature, structure, ect...

On leakage, Dr. Khackans model for single electrons shows that electrons are lost over time.

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This does not tell us much. 1,400 electrons is not at all a real system. Extending how long the electrons are trapped will be key. We will need to keep them out of the "loss cone." This is a concept stolen from magnetic mirrors which explains how charge particles slip through magnetic fields.

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I am out of my depth - please assist. This math implies we want (min/max) to be 0 when I thought we wanted 1.

This comes from analysis. Analysis of the rings, show they are spaced so that the axis and corner magnetic field are close.

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Hence, the rings are designed so that the field is more uniform.

To make a 10,000 volt drop at ~8 inches you need to trap 1.2 to 1.5E12 net electrons. This makes an electric field in the center. Right now the fields and electrons inside WB-6 may look like this.

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The D2 gas has to cross to the rings uncharged. Any ion formed outside the rings will move in the wrong direction. This is due to E-field one. The D2 is puffed in a glass tube towards the center. It was likely at room temperature (0.02 eV). When it reaches the electron cloud it ionizes. Controlling ion formation is a problem area in WB6, ion beams will likely be needed in the future. D2 ionizes when it heats up past 16 eV. Then the ions accelerate. They heat up to 10,000 eV. They hit, they fuse. For deuterium, the reactions are.

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You can find the fusion rate, using the volumetric fusion equation.

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The goal then is higher velocity collisions or denser ions concentrations or reactions which make more energy. Many fusion schemes stop here. But, for net power we need to look at everything. That means using the Lawson criterion.

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The two mechanisms hurting you are conduction and radiation losses. Conduction can be lowered many ways: by making the rings smooth, shielding surfaces and trying to get high electron recirculation. Radiation scales as temperature^4. Hence, if most of the cloud is cold, then polywell radiates less energy as light and it works better. Hence the ideal ion and electron energies should be.

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I want to know if this distribution is possible. The ions and electrons are very different.

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