Adding Magnetism to a Fusor

Discuss the technical details of an "open source" community-driven design of a polywell reactor.

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VernonNemitz
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Adding Magnetism to a Fusor

Postby VernonNemitz » Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:31 pm


D Tibbets
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Postby D Tibbets » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:25 pm

To error is human... and I'm very human.

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Postby chrismb » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:36 pm


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two replies

Postby VernonNemitz » Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:31 am

To D Tibbets, yes, the standard/existing wiring of a Fusor grid is not right for planning DC flow through it. A redesign of the grid would be needed. Keep in mind that I did specify that all the wiring involved (in that redesign) would need to be isolated from other electric circuitry. Even though we need one or more electric CIRCUITS for DC to flow, each circuit as a whole can be thought of as one piece of shaped metal, and that piece of metal can be given a static-electric charge. Therefore the parts of that metal (forming part of the overall grid), inside the Fusor, would exhibit this charge. Outside the fusor, some other part of that metal can be accessible by appropriate moving magnetic fields, such that the fields induce DC to flow in the piece of metal (any/all of the one or more electric circuits).

To both D Tibbets and chrismb, I'd like to point out one advantage of a large volume of vacuum (Fusor's don't have to be table-top sized!). The electrostatic field of the grid can be lessened. The ions are accelerated to some total number of electron-volts of Kinetic Energy by the electrostatic field. Two factors, distance-of-travel and strength-of-field, contribute to that KE. So, a larger volume means more distance-of-travel and thus the strength-of-field can be lessened, and the ions will still have enough KE for fusion to occur. I would want the electric field to be low enough so as not to encourage electrons to escape the grid wire.

To chrismb, please remember that both electrostatic and electromagnetic fields strengthen and lessen with the inverse-square law. I'm not saying that it would be easy for some DC current in a coiled Fusor grid-wire to generate enough magnetism to cause ions to be deflected, but what you wrote seems to imply that an ion encountering the two fields would see them strengthen at different rates, and that's not right, in this sense. As an example of what I'm talking about, consider a "Solar Sail" in outer space. It intercepts light from the Sun, and can use the force of the impact of that light to "hover" in the Sun's gravitational field. It can do this anywhere, both close to the Sun and far from the Sun, because both its gravitational field and its light-intensity are equally affected by the inverse-square law. Back inside a Fusor, I can agree that if the electric and magnetic fields had different total strengths, equivalent to the sail not having enough area to intercept enough light, then no such balance would be possible --in THAT sense, an ion encountering the two fields would see them strengthen at different rates (equivalent to the too-small sail falling at an accelerating rate). Anyway, it seems to me possible that with a large-enough Fusor, and a mild-enough electrostatic field on the grid, then if that grid also was the source of a magnetic field, most of the ions might be deflected from it. Let's see, NASA has a really big vacuum chamber somewhere, right? All it needs is a grid to become a Fusor...heh! [/b]

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Re: two replies

Postby chrismb » Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:27 am


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Postby Skipjack » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:55 pm


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Postby chrismb » Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:59 pm


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Postby Skipjack » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:07 pm


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silliness

Postby VernonNemitz » Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:08 am

To chrismb, it is pure silliness to talk about infinitely-intense magnetic or electric fields; there are none such anywhere on Earth, including any existing Fusor. Nor are there going to be, any time soon. So stop trying to confuse the topic with "singularities", please.

Next, round wires in a vacuum are generally poor electron emitters; a sharp point is much preferred by electrons for escaping a wire. When heated, sure, they will escape more easily than when the wire is cold.

Which leads directly to the next bit of silliness; your assumption that just because I used an incandescent-bulb filament as a starting point for describing a coiled wire, I somehow intended that that model had to be copied exactly, incandescence included, in the suggestion I was making. I most certainly did not! The coiled grid wire needs to be a good conductor, and we don't want to resistance-heat it any more than can be avoided.

The next bit of silliness on your part involves the ions impacting the wire and thereby heating it; why are they doing this if the magnetic field deflects them? Having the grid wire coiled so that it forms a deflecting the field is the whole purpose of this Topic Thread. If not-enough deflection occurs, fine, then the idea isn't so good, but you seem to be assuming none at all will be deflected.

The next bit of silliness on your part is a failure to read what I wrote. I am not at all talking about applying a bigger potential in a bigger vacuum. I am talking about lessening the electrostatic field on the coiled grid wire. This is workable because, in a larger vacuum, the ions have more room to accelerate under the influence of a weaker field; the net effect is that the same kinetic energy as before can be achieved. So, it logically follows that a big-enough vacuum chamber will allow a WEAK-enough electrostatic field on the grid wire, so that if the grid wire is also coiled and is conducting some DC, it will host a magnetic field that should be able to deflect the ions. The magnetic field can be "in balance" with the electric field. Or even overbalance it.

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Re: silliness

Postby chrismb » Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:07 am


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Postby D Tibbets » Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:50 am

To error is human... and I'm very human.

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Postby MSimon » Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:56 am


VernonNemitz
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silliness

Postby VernonNemitz » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:23 pm


chrismb
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Re: silliness

Postby chrismb » Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:35 pm


VernonNemitz
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thermalization

Postby VernonNemitz » Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:51 pm

OK, then, that is why a "high vacuum" is required in any sort of Fusor (including Polywell). You might note that if some remaining gas atom gets energized by a collision, it is thus encouraged to reach the walls of the container, where the vacuum pumps are. I would tend to think that the presence of the moving ions in the system would eventually work to help fully evacuate the device of all non-ions, after which your problem disappears.

About the magnetism thing, I never said it would be practical! I just said certain aspects of it would be possible.


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