Hardware

Discuss the technical details of an "open source" community-driven design of a polywell reactor.

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rexxam62
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Hardware

Post by rexxam62 »

Can someone list all the hardware needed to make a IEC Polywell Fusion Reactor? Also if possible list the approx price of the hardware.

//Rexxam62

Zixinus
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Post by Zixinus »

Mr.Simon is trying to slowly build a machine himself, his blog about it can be found here:

http://iecfusiontech.blogspot.com/

Specifically regarding "list of stuff to get":
http://iecfusiontech.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ssues.html

Nanos
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Post by Nanos »

I wonder what the material costs might be to construct one for personal electric generation use, perhaps a 10Kw model, or is there a particular bottom ceiling of output one can expect ?

I'm just pondering whether it could be affordable for someone to develop the entire thing on a shoestring, or whether the shoestring would need to be in the millions alone just for the components ?

rexxam62
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Post by rexxam62 »

Nanos wrote:I wonder what the material costs might be to construct one for personal electric generation use, perhaps a 10Kw model, or is there a particular bottom ceiling of output one can expect ?

I'm just pondering whether it could be affordable for someone to develop the entire thing on a shoestring, or whether the shoestring would need to be in the millions alone just for the components ?
Very interesting question. It would be really nice to list the approx price of all parts.

Nanos
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Post by Nanos »

Like all great experts, I shall pluck a figure out of thin air and suggest $20,000 US dollars for a 10kw model, component price only, not including assembling.

Some idea on how much space it might all take up could be another concern, not all of us have endless basement space for such constructions.

Figures for ongoing fuel usage costs, and amounts would also be handy to have some idea of, would it need refueling weekly, monthly, yearly ?

rexxam62
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Post by rexxam62 »

Nanos wrote:Like all great experts, I shall pluck a figure out of thin air and suggest $20,000 US dollars for a 10kw model, component price only, not including assembling.

Some idea on how much space it might all take up could be another concern, not all of us have endless basement space for such constructions.

Figures for ongoing fuel usage costs, and amounts would also be handy to have some idea of, would it need refueling weekly, monthly, yearly ?
Could you please inform me what could be done with 10kw? Would that be enough to power a whole house with all the computers, televisions, fridge, stove, lights, warm water etc?

Nanos
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Post by Nanos »

In my single room I use about 2kw (which apparently is about 4 times what your average whole house is supposed to use..) so I'm assuming my new home would find 10kw enough to run everything.

I was noticing in this thread talk about some projected costing figures;

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums ... &start=211

My impression and limited understanding seem to indicate that a working system can only be made so small, and thus does have a minumn cost, which could be rather high, though I have no real idea just how high, whether we are talking $10,000, or $50,000 or $100,000.

I'm reminded of the early days of hovercraft building, when they could have been built the same way as boats, but instead went with aircraft construction costs, which was far higher than if a few boat builders had been left in charge.

So whilst one person might say it would cost say $5 million to build one, another might be able to do a simlar job for 1/10 of that with a bit of laterial thinking and less desire to use the best materials out there.

rexxam62
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Post by rexxam62 »

Nanos wrote:In my single room I use about 2kw (which apparently is about 4 times what your average whole house is supposed to use..) so I'm assuming my new home would find 10kw enough to run everything.

I was noticing in this thread talk about some projected costing figures;

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums ... &start=211

My impression and limited understanding seem to indicate that a working system can only be made so small, and thus does have a minumn cost, which could be rather high, though I have no real idea just how high, whether we are talking $10,000, or $50,000 or $100,000.

I'm reminded of the early days of hovercraft building, when they could have been built the same way as boats, but instead went with aircraft construction costs, which was far higher than if a few boat builders had been left in charge.

So whilst one person might say it would cost say $5 million to build one, another might be able to do a simlar job for 1/10 of that with a bit of laterial thinking and less desire to use the best materials out there.
Alow me to dissagree with you. 10kw would probably run everything in your home but not heat for water, dishwashers, and everything else that use hot water. If you include that i would probably say a home of 4 including hot water use about 30kw.

Btw if the materials would cost 20k USD and i managed to find someone to do all the work and engineering for free then i could probably fund it all as a hobby project.

Nanos
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Post by Nanos »

Thats 2kw continuously, about 24kwh per day usage, and yes your right that doesn't include heating/water, if ones home is well insulated, you don't need heating, and just stick with cold showers :-)

Reading the above thread in the other URL, it might appear that $100,000 might be nearer the figure, than $10,000. (Still affordable I reckon to a single individual.)

Effiency of extracting the electric generated might be one way of reducing costs.

I'm happy with any disagreements, as it might shake a few facts loose during the debate and get us to think about things, and put them thoughts down as words so we can get a little nearer to our goal.

rexxam62
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Post by rexxam62 »

Nanos wrote:Thats 2kw continuously, about 24kwh per day usage, and yes your right that doesn't include heating/water, if ones home is well insulated, you don't need heating, and just stick with cold showers :-)

Reading the above thread in the other URL, it might appear that $100,000 might be nearer the figure, than $10,000. (Still affordable I reckon to a single individual.)

Effiency of extracting the electric generated might be one way of reducing costs.

I'm happy with any disagreements, as it might shake a few facts loose during the debate and get us to think about things, and put them thoughts down as words so we can get a little nearer to our goal.
Hehe cold showers? no thank you sir!! :lol: i shower like 1hour every day and run dishwashers, five computers, flatscreen televisions, stereos and strong lights for the industrial hemp i grow in my house. :D

Btw maybe it wont be possible to generate fusion if it is this smal scale. One of Bussards reasons he needed alot of money was that the fusion scales or something with the size of the machine. I can be wrong about this but size did matter. Am i wrong here? Could you get fusion from small machines?

jlumartinez
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Post by jlumartinez »

Maybe having a Polywell + POPS system would allow smaller machines producing net power. I am not sure. MSimon is more aware of the advantages of POPS technology. Maybe he may answer this. Which are the final advantages of a POPS system?

bcglorf
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no one really knows

Post by bcglorf »

jlumartinez wrote:Maybe having a Polywell + POPS system would allow smaller machines producing net power. I am not sure. MSimon is more aware of the advantages of POPS technology. Maybe he may answer this. Which are the final advantages of a POPS system?
The guys working on POPS reference Bussard's work, so MSimon believes their approach could be applied to Polywell. POPS basically uses resonance to improve ion focus, theoretically Polywell systems might be able to use that resonance to increase efficiency. Problem would be how much it improves efficiency. Even a 100x performance boost wouldn't give you a household sized Polywell. Add into that the complexity of the ion/electron interactions in the Polywell core and you just can't really say if POPS can be applied on that or not without trying it. The big deal from a 100x performance boost is getting 20,000MW over 200MW at 2m radius. Even if fusion power gains by R^3 that means a 100x performance boost from POPS only reduces size by ~5%.

Keegan
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Post by Keegan »

rexxam62 wrote:Hehe cold showers? no thank you sir!! :lol: i shower like 1hour every day and run dishwashers, five computers, flatscreen televisions, stereos and strong lights for the industrial hemp i grow in my house. :D
All i need is some good food and an audiophile stereo !


Pops may give you the ability to have a smaller machine. How small will need to be calculated and thats providing it doesn't interfere with the machines delicate well balance that in itself is has only been experimentally tested for a fraction of a second.


"An ion cloud immersed in the virtual cathode [referred to as the periodically oscillating plasma sphere (POPS)] will then undergo a harmonic oscillation where the oscillation frequency is independent of the amplitude. By tuning the external radio-frequency (rf) electric fields to this naturally occurring mode, it is then possible to phase lock the ion motions. This simultaneously produces very high densities and temperatures during the collapse phase of the oscillation, when all ions converge to the center with their maximum kinetic energies."

So yeah just it (brilliantly) increases the ion compression at the core increasing fusion Q for a given size

Dont blame you guys if you missed it, its been discussed over in the news forum so jump aboard

viewtopic.php?t=62

Looks promising but we may be getting ahead of ourselves, with far more fundamental areas of the machine still unknown
Purity is Power

rexxam62
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Post by rexxam62 »

I had the impression POPS only worked in a Grid. Polywell is gridless. Remember?

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

rexxam62 wrote:I had the impression POPS only worked in a Grid. Polywell is gridless. Remember?
The plasma has a natural frequency.

You can excite it by changing the well voltage slightly at the proper frequency. i.e. modulate the HV power supply.

Or it may be possible to modulate the electron beams to excite the frequency.

In fact we might even be able to excite it by modulating the magnetic fields. Although I'd prefer to avoid those drive problems.

Simon

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