ACES 2009 language needs to include polywell -- URGENT!

Discuss ways to make polywell research more widely known or better understood. Includes education and outreach.

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MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Sun May 17, 2009 6:28 pm

KitemanSA wrote:
mrchito wrote: It seems that the "research" at this point can only be done through deployment. A 100 MW reactor is not something intended for laboratory research. I have not seen discussion for any reactors smaller than 100 MW from Nebel's group. And my impression was that their intention was to go straight to deployment, perhaps because it would be impractical to test such a reactor in laboratory conditions if it is intended for municipal power.
Actually, DrB wanted two more small scale units after the rebuild of WB6, one with rounded corner square plan form magnets and one with round corner pentagonal plan form magnets for an icosadodecahedron polywell. After those two, DrB proposed to jump straight to the 100MW unit.
MSimon has, with some argumentative support from the rest of us, proposed an intermediate scale unit in order to demonstrate continuous operation, while getting closer to, but not making, break-even. Each of these units is research.


I have modified my position. I think a net power device (on the order of 1 MW) can be done almost as cheaply as a LN2 Cu coil test reactor.

For reasons of speed (and to some extent cost) I'm proposing using off the shelf 3T MRI magnets suitably modified.
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Postby KitemanSA » Sun May 17, 2009 7:49 pm

MSimon wrote: I have modified my position. I think a net power device (on the order of 1 MW) can be done almost as cheaply as a LN2 Cu coil test reactor.

For reasons of speed (and to some extent cost) I'm proposing using off the shelf 3T MRI magnets suitably modified.
Last time I was in an MRI, I noticed that the length was greater than the bore. Are you sure the magnets from an MRI machine will be suitable for Polywell purposes? Are you sure they are not WAY too deep? Source?

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Postby MSimon » Sun May 17, 2009 10:56 pm

KitemanSA wrote:
MSimon wrote: I have modified my position. I think a net power device (on the order of 1 MW) can be done almost as cheaply as a LN2 Cu coil test reactor.

For reasons of speed (and to some extent cost) I'm proposing using off the shelf 3T MRI magnets suitably modified.
Last time I was in an MRI, I noticed that the length was greater than the bore. Are you sure the magnets from an MRI machine will be suitable for Polywell purposes? Are you sure they are not WAY too deep? Source?


MRIs are made up of 6 (I think) magnets. What you were in was the covering of the 6 magnets. The bare magnets I have seen look roughly like a Polywell magnet. Any way that is what I remembered. Here is how it actually is:

MRI magnets are all in one housing.

Image

http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/education/tut ... ticle.html
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KitemanSA
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Postby KitemanSA » Mon May 18, 2009 12:48 am

MSimon wrote: MRIs are made up of 6 (I think) magnets. What you were in was the covering of the 6 magnets. The bare magnets I have seen look roughly like a Polywell magnet. Any way that is what I remembered. Here is how it actually is:

MRI magnets are all in one housing.
I found that image while searching too, but I see one magnet with six segments, not six magnets. The six segments would have to be removed and individually encased with cooling systems, etc. Not quite the same thing as 6 magnets.

But I guess this is where you got your estimate of six magnets being the price of one MRI machine.

Would the six magnets individually produce the 3T fields you are expecting or would they be closer to 0.5T?

Well, no matter. Perhaps we can get the six magnets from a used MRI machine for "free" as a donation or investment in kind.

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Postby MSimon » Mon May 18, 2009 1:22 am

KitemanSA wrote:
MSimon wrote: MRIs are made up of 6 (I think) magnets. What you were in was the covering of the 6 magnets. The bare magnets I have seen look roughly like a Polywell magnet. Any way that is what I remembered. Here is how it actually is:

MRI magnets are all in one housing.
I found that image while searching too, but I see one magnet with six segments, not six magnets. The six segments would have to be removed and individually encased with cooling systems, etc. Not quite the same thing as 6 magnets.

But I guess this is where you got your estimate of six magnets being the price of one MRI machine.

Would the six magnets individually produce the 3T fields you are expecting or would they be closer to 0.5T?

Well, no matter. Perhaps we can get the six magnets from a used MRI machine for "free" as a donation or investment in kind.


For an infinite coil the field is constant along the axis of the coil. I would expect the individual coils should be able to produce near 3 T.

Obviously there is an industrial method for winding the segments. So wind a segment and enclose it in a specially designed grid housing.
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Postby KitemanSA » Mon May 18, 2009 1:48 pm

Are there used machines available on the market that could be salvaged for the segments and encased?

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Postby D Tibbets » Mon May 18, 2009 2:07 pm

In the picture it appears that the magnetic segments have a retangular crossection- like WB4. Can they be incased in spherical shaped cans with enough standoff to operate like with WB6 geometry, though at corresponding weaker magnetic fields? The throats of the cusps may be tighter with this design (?).

It would be nice (cheaper) if one used MRI could provide all six magnets, as opposed to needing to salvage the magnets from six seperate machines.


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MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Mon May 18, 2009 2:22 pm

D Tibbets wrote:In the picture it appears that the magnetic segments have a retangular crossection- like WB4. Can they be incased in spherical shaped cans with enough standoff to operate like with WB6 geometry, though at corresponding weaker magnetic fields? The throats of the cusps may be tighter with this design (?).

It would be nice (cheaper) if one used MRI could provide all six magnets, as opposed to needing to salvage the magnets from six seperate machines.


Dsn Tibbets


The coils are encased in epoxy I believe. The difficulty for old MRI machines is that they are 1 T fields. I'd prefer to buy new 3T coils. You get about 80X as much power and it puts you in the vicinity of net power.
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Postby D Tibbets » Mon May 18, 2009 4:05 pm

MSimon wrote:
D Tibbets wrote:In the picture it appears that the magnetic segments have a retangular crossection- like WB4. Can they be incased in spherical shaped cans with enough standoff to operate like with WB6 geometry, though at corresponding weaker magnetic fields? The throats of the cusps may be tighter with this design (?).

It would be nice (cheaper) if one used MRI could provide all six magnets, as opposed to needing to salvage the magnets from six seperate machines.


Dsn Tibbets


The coils are encased in epoxy I believe. The difficulty for old MRI machines is that they are 1 T fields. I'd prefer to buy new 3T coils. You get about 80X as much power and it puts you in the vicinity of net power.


I was thinking of 3 Tesla magnetic coils. I was speculating that the lower effective field strengths would come from having to have the coils spaced further apart than in a spherical crossection arrangement to keep the cusp geometries far enough away from the magnets that they do not see the retangular edges of the magnets. Of course when you consider the volume that would be needed inside a spherical crossection shell for the cooling and insulating layers this point may be moot.


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mrchito
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Postby mrchito » Mon May 18, 2009 8:34 pm

KitemanSA wrote: After those two, DrB proposed to jump straight to the 100MW unit.
MSimon has, with some argumentative support from the rest of us, proposed an intermediate scale unit in order to demonstrate continuous operation, while getting closer to, but not making, break-even. Each of these units is research.


The wording is "full scale 100MW Fusion System". Does that mean a full scale system built and tested for a municipality (or plant or ship) or does it mean a full scale system built and tested in the lab?

What I wanted to learn with this thread is that do we need to make sure that legislation, at this point, should make it easy to start deploying these prototype systems in the real world or does the general population just need to stand back and wait for more data?

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Postby Aero » Mon May 18, 2009 9:15 pm

What I wanted to learn with this thread is that do we need to make sure that legislation, at this point, should make it easy to start deploying these prototype systems in the real world or does the general population just need to stand back and wait for more data?


What I think you are reading here is, "We don't know." We don't know if Polywell is going to work, or not. We do know that if Polywell does prove to work, then appropriate language in the legislation should be a positive thing. If Polywell proves not to work, then the question I have is, "Will the language inserted now cause any harm?" Certainly not to the Polywell efforts, under that condition, IMO.

Dr. Nebel, the leader of the research effort, has said that we will know within 18 months, to two years, whether or not Polywell works. I suggest you send an email message to him, introducing yourself and your credentials, then explaining what you propose (maybe you could include sample language), then asking what he would advise you to do. Keep the message to one page if you can. Dr. Nebel has an email address on his profile on this forum. Find a post by rnebel, there you can find his profile. Or, maybe MSimon would be so kind as to forward an email message for you, you'd have to ask him.

One of the problems we on this forum have is that we don't know your credentials. Please don't bother Dr. Nebel unless you have a reasonable chance of succeeding in doing what you propose. If so, then by all means, ask for his advice.

The above is my two cents worth, it is not endorsed by members of this forum unless done so explicitly below.
Aero

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Postby MSimon » Mon May 18, 2009 10:35 pm

I have been keeping Dr. N informed of all funding proposals public and private that seem in any way significant. People send me e-mails and if I think they have some value I pass them on. Also people have mentioned on this forum proposals and if they meed the criteria I pass them on. And my criteria are rather loose.

Rick has also to some extent kept me informed of some of his funding efforts. Of course without his permission I am not at liberty to discuss them in public.

So post here or send me an e-mail. The addy is on the sidebar at:

http://iecfusiontech.blogspot.com/
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Postby KitemanSA » Tue May 19, 2009 12:35 am

MSimon wrote: For an infinite coil the field is constant along the axis of the coil. I would expect the individual coils should be able to produce near 3 T.
Did a quick "scale by thumb" assessment of the magnet and I suspect about half the field at any segment is due to the fields from the two adjoining segments, so IF the peak at the center of the core is 3T, then a single segment should be fairly close to 1.5T rather than either 3T or 0.5T. Of course I am not a magnet guy so my thumb may not be well calibrated. :wink:

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Postby MSimon » Tue May 19, 2009 1:40 am

KitemanSA wrote:
MSimon wrote: For an infinite coil the field is constant along the axis of the coil. I would expect the individual coils should be able to produce near 3 T.
Did a quick "scale by thumb" assessment of the magnet and I suspect about half the field at any segment is due to the fields from the two adjoining segments, so IF the peak at the center of the core is 3T, then a single segment should be fairly close to 1.5T rather than either 3T or 0.5T. Of course I am not a magnet guy so my thumb may not be well calibrated. :wink:


It may be possible to get a higher field if we get the cooling down to 1.8K rather than the nominal 4.2 K that the coils are operated at.

That would about double the cooling load which may be acceptable for an experimental device.

I wish I had the cash for something like COMSOL to do multiphysics simulations. It is about $10K per seat per year. The nice thing is that it would show fields AND forces so designers would have the information they require.
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Postby KitemanSA » Tue May 19, 2009 2:23 pm

MSimon wrote: [I wish I had the cash for something like COMSOL to do multiphysics simulations.
Anyone on this forum have the software available and would you be willing to help MSimon do said analyses?


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