Talk-Polywell.org

Any realistic avenues for cutting costs to develop the polywell?

I'll use 150 million USD as the baseline - the DD polywell. IMO
its a less risky fuel cycle, not to mention cheaper. Prove the
DD reactor and the 200 MUSD for pB11 will materialize.

Acquiring capital equipment at distress or scrap prices?

Use of rural/abandoned/cheap gov't land for facilities?
Maybe an abandoned military facility still in decent condition?

Any places in Russia or the Second World selling off usable
equipment at _cheap_ prices?

Pay the development team in stock options? Zilch pay unless
and until its proven and licensed/sold? Maybe target physics
Grad students (work cheap & get their names on the publications)
as staff?

What are the high cost items driving the 100 MUSD+ price
tag on the full scale power-producing test unit?

Wages perhaps.

Maybe staff it with all retired folk who can do it all for free.

Unlikely. I think the costs include already some savings for keeping some of the stuff from the previous experiments at SpaceDev. Equipment and place is considered in savings. Personal and wages are not that easy, as you cannot pay someone with a PhD below average, even if he is interested. Retired folks are too tired for this kind of adventure.

As for equipment, I don't think that some second-rate thing should be used, and experiments fail because of them.

As for the 150 mil, that's the future's song.

Right now, 2-5 mil experiments should be pushed, to repeat and confirm scaling laws. If that happens, and the scientific community gets their data, the money will come easily.

Zixinus wrote:Unlikely. I think the costs include already some savings for keeping some of the stuff from the previous experiments at SpaceDev. Equipment and place is considered in savings. Personal and wages are not that easy, as you cannot pay someone with a PhD below average, even if he is interested. Retired folks are too tired for this kind of adventure.

As for equipment, I don't think that some second-rate thing should be used, and experiments fail because of them.

As for the 150 mil, that's the future's song.

Right now, 2-5 mil experiments should be pushed, to repeat and confirm scaling laws. If that happens, and the scientific community gets their data, the money will come easily.

OK, that's entirely reasonable.

The same types of questions apply tho - any practical ways to slash
that 2-5 MUSD?

Salvage WB-6 and give it new magnets instead of building a new one from scratch? Or would that make experiments less meaningful?

djolds1 wrote:Any realistic avenues for cutting costs to develop the polywell?

Wrong way to think about it. If there is proof of the pudding (continuous operation of WB7-x). The big bucks will flood in. Not a problem.

Let us focus on raising the $5 to $15 million to do WB7x right.

That shouldn't be too hard.

I have some preliminary design specs for WB-7x http://iecfusiontech.blogspot.com/ scroll down.

Main points:

1. Liquid cooled
2. Continuous operation
3. Hefty power supplies
4. Lots of instrumentation and controls

We want proof beyond a reasonable doubt that scaling up will work - at least from a physics standpoint.

JohnP wrote:Salvage WB-6 and give it new magnets instead of building a new one from scratch? Or would that make experiments less meaningful?

Other than the vacuum pumps there is nothing useful to salvage from WB-6.

It is a pulsed machine.

Continuous operation of WB-7x is a requirement for scaling up to WB-100M.

So far no one has shown the ability to maintain a well for longer than milliseconds in the last 10 or 20 years. Fusion in WB-6 lasted 250 microseconds.

We need to find out if POPS is applicable. Lots of stuff to learn.

No engineer in his right mind with an eye on WB-100M is going to want to repeat pulsed experiments.

We should be low cost. Not cheap. Everything required should be in the plan. Including enough labor to keep things moving along briskly.

MSimon wrote:

djolds1 wrote:Any realistic avenues for cutting costs to develop the polywell?

Wrong way to think about it. If there is proof of the pudding (continuous operation of WB7-x). The big bucks will flood in. Not a problem.

Let us focus on raising the $5 to $15 million to do WB7x right.

That shouldn't be too hard.

I have some preliminary design specs for WB-7x http://iecfusiontech.blogspot.com/ scroll down.

Main points:

1. Liquid cooled
2. Continuous operation
3. Hefty power supplies
4. Lots of instrumentation and controls

We want proof beyond a reasonable doubt that scaling up will work - at least from a physics standpoint.

Good point.

I especially like your run down on the needed components of
WB7x. You've already done what I was only starting to grope
at, and with 10x or more detail than I would have. Beautiful
work.

So... 5 to 15 MUSD. Tri Alpha has acquired upto 40 MUSD per
reports for the colliding beam fusion reactor concept, and the
Polywell has a longer track record of development.

I have talked with Bussard and know that his new EMC2 foundation have taken in only a couple of $k so far. That has lead me to think if there is some other way to make the $5m tests then traditional capitalism just to prove it out. Because when the two tests he intend to do with the $5m are proven to work he will get the rest ($150m) faster then you can blink. Anyways... If you think about it. If you can get workers to do the work only for food and a room and the equipment could be donated. Then you could produce the two first tests like Wikipedia is produced (by contributions!). Just an idea.

Btw as a large shareholder off SpaceDev I intend to push for the creation of a subsidiary of SpaceDev that in the future will manufacture and sell fusion (If it turns out Bussard is on to something that is!). I would love to team up with other shareholders of SpaceDev to let the management know that we want his fusion work to be under SpaceDev.

//Rexxam62

Btw I found this web page made by an Estonian software engineer who has coded three videos of polywell fusion and put them on YouTube. They are pretty neat. Check it out.

http://www.mare.ee/indrek/ephi/

His name on YouTube is: harakas42

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHrKLlvkts4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upCxw09sr8Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao0Erhsnor4

//Rexxam62

I have talked with Bussard and know that his new EMC2 foundation have taken in only a couple of $k so far. That has lead me to think if there is some other way to make the $5m tests then traditional capitalism just to prove it out.

Messing with physics is more then enough, messing with funding is way too much. Just because previous experiments were running on a few thousand doesn't mean that future experiments won't be. The size of the vacuum chamber and equipment alone has a non-trivial cost.

Anyways... If you think about it. If you can get workers to do the work only for food and a room and the equipment could be donated. Then you could produce the two first tests like Wikipedia is produced (by contributions!). Just an idea.

As for workers working only for food and room, get that idea out right NOW.

We are talking about engineers and physicist with PhDs and the like, not to mention potential illegality of this idea.

Not everyone involved of course will be a highly-qualified person, but these people will have a high enough qualification that scraps of food and a closet with a bed is not an option. Besides, there surely could be volunteers for the manual labour and the like.

And collage students. Don't forget collage students. They have some expertise and knowledge, plus they have higher tolerance regarding pay, plus motivation (getting jobs will be easier for anyone that has it in his resume that he worked in EMC2, the company that developed practical fusion power).

Btw I found this web page made by an Estonian software engineer who has coded three videos of polywell fusion and put them on YouTube.

His name is Indrek. I think he's a member here.

Zixinus

In a perfect world we would pay everyone all they wanted. But in capitalism we always have limited resources and have to compromise! Always! in order to get things done. But again it was just ideas. Working in the field of finance myself I also need to note that the price of University educated people have fallen due to globalization that has increased the supply of University educated people.

Btw I like the idea of getting University students involved. It could probably be done both in USA & globally with the help of Internet as well.

There is a good way to compensate these students and volunteers (If a couple of thouse would be used). "Stock Call Options" and "Options" for future jobs if this was done as a subsidiary of SpaceDev that is.

Ofcourse things would only be done like this when the concept is being tried out. Because if this works. You can bet on that it will create a couple of thousands of jobs. When all thouse machines are to be exported around the planet for different purposes.

Nice forum btw

//Rexxam62

Even with collage students, we still need a core of professional and experienced engineers. There is no way around that. Volunteers might help with the heavy lifting, and perhaps even with the cleaning, and collage students might help maintenance the computers or get some parts, but when we need to calculate plasma instabilities, we need a professional. And we have to pay them, as they have to eat and run a family too.

EDIT: Also, a good line in their resume is a source of motivation, not pay. They still have to be paid.

I donated $100 to the Bussard Foundation. Will probably donate $1k more. But again something needs to happen if this is going to be done for real. And there are three ways if you ask me:

1. Someone rich fund it all in a one time lump sum (Some rich guy would probably love to fund it but given the advanced physics involved here its hard for them to asses if this is bogus or not)

2. It gets public funding (Not going to happen with all the cash being sent to Iraq to secure its oil fields, Because USA is not in Iraq to find Osama Bin Laden)

3. My suggestion

//Rexxam62

rexxam62 wrote:I donated $100 to the Bussard Foundation. Will probably donate $1k more.

Good for you! I've only donated $50 so far, but I expect I'll donate more too.

rexxam62 wrote:But again something needs to happen if this is going to be done for real. And there are three ways if you ask me:

1. Someone rich fund it all in a one time lump sum (Some rich guy would probably love to fund it but given the advanced physics involved here its hard for them to asses if this is bogus or not)

2. It gets public funding (Not going to happen with all the cash being sent to Iraq to secure its oil fields, Because USA is not in Iraq to find Osama Bin Laden)

3. My suggestion

As for option #2, public funding doesn't necessarily have to come from the US federal government. It could come from a state government, or from some other country, or even from a charitable organization.