Ebay or ..

[gblaze42]

Another possible way to generate income is;

1) Auction off WB-6 on ebay or like site. Who wouldn't want a piece of the future??


2) Create a lottery for a grand prize of tour of the WB-7 and let the winner be one to activate the WB-7 on it's first burn?

[Zixinus]

1) Auction off WB-6 on ebay or like site. Who wouldn't want a piece of the future??

That would only be useful once Polywell is proven. Until then, WB-6 is a pile of junk.

2) Create a lottery for a grand prize of tour of the WB-7 and let the winner be one to activate the WB-7 on it's first burn?

We need WB-7 first, and money to create a lottery as well. The money would be better spent on actual research. As for winner activating, the actual tests would be very boring for the mundane person, and I'm sure the actual researchers would be happier if their work would be followed by less melodrama.

EDIT: Still, the lottery idea is not that bad. Allot of stuff has been funded by lottery, several charities even.

[gblaze42]

We need WB-7 first, and money to create a lottery as well. The money would be better spent on actual research. As for winner activating, the actual tests would be very boring for the mundane person, and I'm sure the actual researchers would be happier if their work would be followed by less melodrama.

EDIT: Still, the lottery idea is not that bad. Allot of stuff has been funded by lottery, several charities even.

Thats what I was implying, if we can sell lottery tickets before hand we raise enough money to make and test WB-7 then when it's finally ready to test the winner can be the one to push the 'start' button. It's all PR from here on.

Edit: i still like the idea of selling the WB-6 on Ebay, even if it is considered junk (which it isn't). Think of the PR it would create just to have a prototype fusion reactor from Dr. Bussard?! His name still has a lot of pull specially amongst the people who remember science fiction stories of the Bussard Ramscoop. Something to take advantage of.

[Zixinus]

We need to guarantee a prize. A real one, not just the false honour of flipping a switch. Like a money prize. Although, if we can gather up enough money that could be considered a prize, we might make a big enough lottery for the income to exceed the outcome (that is, more money gained then lost).

However, I'd leave this kind of business to those who have experience in this field.

[gblaze42]

We need to guarantee a prize. A real one, not just the false honour of flipping a switch. Like a money prize. Although, if we can gather up enough money that could be considered a prize, we might make a big enough lottery for the income to exceed the outcome (that is, more money gained then lost).

However, I'd leave this kind of business to those who have experience in this field.

Well we could have an exclusively made model of the WB-7 with a plaque signed by Dr. Bussard. We could get televised by youtube. I imagine if we could get a sponsor who makes cast metal models to donate his work, this should easily be doable.

[Zixinus]

Well we could have an exclusively made model of the WB-7 with a plaque signed by Dr. Bussard. We could get televised by youtube. I imagine if we could get a sponsor who makes cast metal models to donate his work, this should easily be doable.

This is science and engineering, not a gameshow. WB-7 is an experimental device, not a wonder-machine. Dr.Bussard is a tired yet restless scientist, who has barely enough energy to keep his work going, not someone popular or some magician.

To top it off, the snake-oil smell this would put on us would smell throughout history. Not something we want in the face of scientific community.

The idea has merit, just not with this.

[gblaze42]

Then I think we are stuck. If we are trying to garner support from the public. No one will donate (as is happening now) to something that does not catch their interest or they believe in, so we will be stuck with tokamak research that the public does believe in.

I apologize but I feel (being one of the few people that has caught wind of polywell fusion) that theirs a double message being sent out by the proponents of pollywell. On one side the talk of just how good a technology it will be, and then theirs the message "well we aren't certain it will work". From an outsiders point of view It's really confusing. I have the potential access to fund a polywell project, I funded many 'realistic' projects, and I know that the message needs to be clear. I'm starting to think that the focus still needs focus on research and to show that it will work and not actually public support, as the two audiences, and needs, are vastly different.

[Zixinus]

Then I think we are stuck. If we are trying to garner support from the public. No one will donate (as is happening now) to something that does not catch their interest or they believe in, so we will be stuck with tokamak research that the public does believe in.

Actually, no. There are other fusion research companies (TriAlpha, Focus Fusion and there is the company working with Z-pinch) that are working with promising ideas and concepts.

I apologize but I feel (being one of the few people that has caught wind of polywell fusion) that theirs a double message being sent out by the proponents of pollywell. On one side the talk of just how good a technology it will be, and then theirs the message "well we aren't certain it will work".

We are confident that it will work, but we also express our scepticism and discuss various issues that may be problematic in the future. For example, cooling the Polywell machine will be a very difficult task, especially with the cryogenic superconductors (although first machines will use liquid nitrogen cooled coper wires).

We are talking about scientific R&D. We cannot claim that this is "a sure bet", because its not. The current problems may be insurmountable, or we might discover new ones. However, there is so far little indication for that happening.

From an outsiders point of view It's really confusing.

Let me simplify it: "We have very good reasons why this would work, but there are problems that we still have to develop their solutions from concept to reality. On paper, everything should work fine, but we still have to experiment the last bits out to be absolutely sure. There are also engineering details that we need to examine very closely. Overall, we see the end of the dark tunnel but we still have a few last steps to go."

I'm starting to think that the focus still needs focus on research and to show that it will work and not actually public support, as the two audiences, and needs, are vastly different.

We need both actually. Public support would help us work trough the future political mess, as well as help gain funding, not to mention motivate researchers.

However, there are still things to be learned about how the polyhedron potential well works, especially if we were to do advanced (aneutronic) fuels.

[gblaze42]

Actually, no. There are other fusion research companies (TriAlpha, Focus Fusion and there is the company working with Z-pinch) that are working with promising ideas and concepts.

I'm aware of them, may be nice to have a billionaire supporting EMC2 research as well. What I'm saying is Tokamak fusion is the most funded both by government and academic, the $40 million TriAlpha has raised so far is just a drop in the bucket as compared to Tokamak research. Juries out on Focus fusion, it does seem to good to be true. The only one's I feel are even close enough to workable in the decades ahead are the Z-pinch technology and MIT's LDX floating ring.

We are confident that it will work, but we also express our skepticism and discuss various issues that may be problematic in the future. For example, cooling the Polywell machine will be a very difficult task, especially with the cryogenic superconductors (although first machines will use liquid nitrogen cooled coper wires).

We are talking about scientific R&D. We cannot claim that this is "a sure bet", because its not. The current problems may be insurmountable, or we might discover new ones. However, there is so far little indication for that happening.

Very understandable But what I'm talking about is relating that confidence to the public. It's good to be a thorough and objective scientist but what I'm stressing is one needs to be able to relate to the public, which for Polywell, I believe, will make or break it. Considering the funding levels for polywell I strongly believe that academic/government route will be extraordinarily hard to get funding, if not impossible. Then again, hopefully I'm wrong. You believe what I'm suggesting makes it look like a "gameshow" I am just making suggestions that have been put in practice successfully such as what the X-prize foundation has done, just supplanting money for personal involvement from the public. It would only smell of "snake-oil" if done incorrectly.

We need both actually. Public support would help us work trough the future political mess, as well as help gain funding, not to mention motivate researchers.

However, there are still things to be learned about how the polyhedron potential well works, especially if we were to do advanced (aneutronic) fuels.

True, but both have different requirements, Polywell proponents, if they are ever to see the their dream come true will need to think outside the box, push the boundaries, and find new ways to attract the attention of the public. As it sits, it isn't and that just the undeniable facts.

[Zixinus]

What I'm saying is Tokamak fusion is the most funded both by government and academic, the $40 million TriAlpha has raised so far is just a drop in the bucket as compared to Tokamak research

Did you know that Tokamak research compromises 85% of USA research into fusion?

It's good to be a thorough and objective scientist but what I'm stressing is one needs to be able to relate to the public, which for Polywell, I believe, will make or break it.

This isn't about being a good scientist, this is about being honest.

Do you have any idea how many claims are there for "great new, clean and cheap energy source"? Allot. Such claims get large local public support, take allot of money away and then disappear. We don't want that, we don't even want to act like that. We want to show and honest deal and situation.
We can't go in there and say that the thing is ready, because its not.
We can't go in there and say that its so easy to do that a kid could use it, because we need nuclear engineers and physicist to assemble and configure the device.
We can't say "100% clean" because we will certainly start of with simple fuels, like D-T (yes, I know we all like p-b11, but D-T is the easiest and thus should be tried first) that will generate radioactive waste and give energetic and deadly gamma rays that we must work with.
We can't even say that we have everything worked out, because we still have some tidbits to work out, like fuel and electron injection.

We see the light of a star in the end of the tunnel, but we have to climb higher with a few steps. We need the public's support for the last few steps to happen, we need the money to sharpen our tools and finally reach the dream pursued for 50 years.

It would only smell of "snake-oil" if done incorrectly.

First we work with the engineering and science, then start with the large-scale propaganda campaign involving lotteries, Dr.Bussard smiling like an idiot in a camera to the lucky winner, pictures of pulsing plasma and other media lightshow.

If we try to do it the other way around, it will be a mayor hurdle in convincing other scientists, who's support we'll ultimately need if we ever dream of getting the money for finishing off our work, that is the demo reactor.

If we publish the science papers and the other stuff before the lightshow, the scientists and the like will see the lightshow as an unusual way of getting money. If we do it the other way around, the scientists and the like will see us as snake-oil sellers. They can be convinced otherwise, but that would be difficult.

True, but both have different requirements, Polywell proponents, if they are ever to see the their dream come true will need to think outside the box, push the boundaries, and find new ways to attract the attention of the public. As it sits, it isn't and that just the undeniable facts.

Oh, once we have a more solid basis, the fusion promise has something for everyone, regardless what political spectrum you are in. If we could gather up some animators and artists, we could make great videos and images of what Polywell fusion would grant us.

[imagine next section with sexy, uplifting and compelling voice]

The Great Fusion Promise has something that everyone would love to see.

Powerful rocket motors that far surpass anything NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratories can wave a bat at and can actually be developed, unlike plans with fission technology that would run into various political problems (look up "Orion" and "Deadulus", one uses fission the other fusion). Manned missions to Mars, and a permanent Moon base are not only possible, but unmissable opportunities, for the cost of a few air fighters.
Surface-to-LEO costs alone would make any rocket engineer piss their pants with joy.

There is an off-shot of this: fusion jets (under "air-breathing scramjets). Insert a very small amount of superhot fusion plasma into an airstream and you have OMSG (Oh My Sexy Goddess) amount of thrust, with no after-product but a little helium and hot air. Such propulsion would work with other atmosphere very well (you could actually do this with fission btw, look up "The Flying Crowbar" or "Project Pluto", cold war project, scary as shit).
This could make immense and powerful jet planes, which cannot help but be supersonic, or even suborbital. Air traffic would be cleaner and busier, possibly with going highs that are currently reserved only for military and experimental purposes. This means that air travel and transportation would be greatly be cheaper, allowing many more people to visit across the globe much more regularly and more cheaply. Want to take the kids and the wife for a weekend trip to Tokyo to see something different from New York? No problem, the hotel costs will be greater then the plane ticket.

And there is power production. Very powerful, very clean and fairly cheap, non-dependent on any outside source. If every country in the world would swich to fusion from coal, CO2 productions would be massively reduced!

Third-world countries would love it, and other countries could raise little objection, unlike with present fission. Electric bills could be around cents, and your son's allowance could cover a month's energy use. Even homeless people could afford using electric items, and I imagen that there would be public outlets giving electricity for cents an hour. And people would call them overpriced.

Even though Polywell cannot be used as a weapon directly, there are many military possibilities! Step right up gentlemen, and see the aircraft carrier of the future! Loaded with lasers that could destroy any incoming missile or even mortal, and rail guns against which there is little defence, with sonar and radar so powerful that if the technicians are not careful enough, they might boil the seas! There would so much weaponry possible with enough electricity, that we might see the revival of the battleship!

Also, submarines! We could use powered submarines to go deeper, farther and faster then ever before! All electric devices submarines could go for technically forever, with nothing but limitations of the crew. We might even see the birth of a long-forgotten fantasy, civil trips underwater, with large and giant submarines with luxurious service.

Really, there is little for the sceptical mind and plenty of imagination!

[*gasp*]

[Put's "watch "surprise sproker" from "The Chaser's War on Everything" to get more ideas.]

Really, there is very much the public would like that could be gained from Polywell.

What we must do however, for the public not to dismiss it, is to prove that its not a false hope, like many were in the last 50 years. Something that I'd like to be convinced of myself.

EDIT:

Considering the funding levels for polywell I strongly believe that academic/government route will be extraordinarily hard to get funding, if not impossible. Then again, hopefully I'm wrong.

Actually, the funding needed for Polywell would be quite small, even unnoticeable. Consider that EMC2 needs 5 mill max for next stage of experiments. Cold fusion gets around 2 mill a year.

[gblaze42]

Do you have any idea how many claims are there for "great new, clean and cheap energy source"? Allot. Such claims get large local public support, take allot of money away and then disappear. We don't want that, we don't even want to act like that. We want to show and honest deal and situation.
We can't go in there and say that the thing is ready, because its not.
We can't go in there and say that its so easy to do that a kid could use it, because we need nuclear engineers and physicist to assemble and configure the device.
We can't say "100% clean" because we will certainly start of with simple fuels, like D-T (yes, I know we all like p-b11, but D-T is the easiest and thus should be tried first) that will generate radioactive waste and give energetic and deadly gamma rays that we must work with.
We can't even say that we have everything worked out, because we still have some tidbits to work out, like fuel and electron injection.

I agree with most of what your saying, except you need something to sell to get funding!

If you had just 10 second pitch to sell the idea of polywell fusion technology to potential investor or supporter what would you say?

[imagine next section with sexy, uplifting and compelling voice]

The Great Fusion Promise has something that everyone would love to see.

I'll cut it at that, we've all heard the grandiose promises, but what I would be happy with is just break-even power generation and ecstatic with net power production.

Actually, the funding needed for Polywell would be quite small, even unnoticeable. Consider that EMC2 needs 5 mill max for next stage of experiments. Cold fusion gets around 2 mill a year.

I think we are really saying the same things, I too want avoid a "to good to be true" feel about this, but from what I've seen Polywell has a novel approach that should work, whats needed is sell the idea to the public.

[Zixinus]

I agree with most of what your saying, except you need something to sell to get funding!

Ermmm...a promising fusion concept that with the right business can make one very, very, very, very rich?

If you had just 10 second pitch to sell the idea of polywell fusion technology to potential investor or supporter what would you say?

"Excuse me, there is a company that is working on a new clean, powerful and relatively cheap fusion concept that has been recently developed. If it works out, it can make you incredibly rich. I have several book-length documents regarding the underlying science, right here in my bag. Are you interested?"

I just need the "book-length" science documents, that is, theory, results from experiments, simulations, etc.

I'll cut it at that, we've all heard the grandiose promises, but what I would be happy with is just break-even power generation and ecstatic with net power production.

If Polywell works as it should, then we have every reason to believe that these promises could be fulfilled.

I think we are really saying the same things, I too want avoid a "to good to be true" feel about this, but from what I've seen Polywell has a novel approach that should work, whats needed is sell the idea to the public.

"Sell the idea to the public"? What does this mean anyway? The public does not control funding much. Politicians do. And politicians more-or-less listen to scientist, at least in some matters (usually they ignore them). If we can convince the scientific community, then we have something.

[MSimon]

We can't go in there and say that its so easy to do that a kid could use it, because we need nuclear engineers and physicist to assemble and configure the device.

Actually any reasonably competent Naval Nuke Operator could design the test reactor and WB-100. Especially given the collected instructional material and spread sheets.

At this stage there are way more engineering questions than physics questions.

As to hard/easy. We all know D-D is so easy a high school kid could do it.

pB11 only requires that you go from 5 to 15 KV drive to 50 to 60 KV drive.

Burning pB11 is easy. Net power is hard.

[Nanos]

People with money like that know, that 9 out of 10 projects they back, will go to the wall, its the one out of 10 that makes them a lots of money.

Now whilst most of them will only go for projects which look very promising, you can find the odd one whose willing to give it a go, even if its very high risk, just in case it works out.

So I do think its possible, just very difficult to find the right person.

[MSimon]

D-T is the easiest and thus should be tried first.

High school kids burn D-D. I see no reason to even bother with D-T. Besides you have to get all kinds of permits and stuff.

D-D burns at 5 to 15 KV. pB11 burns at 50 to 60 KV. In fact D-D at 40 KV and pB11 at 50KV have the same reaction rate according to the charts.

If reaction rates are sufficient at 50 KV it may not be necessary to go to 200KV (where the reaction rates are 10X higher). This is all due to that really nice resonance peak at around 140 Kev energy in the center of mass frame vs the next peak at 580 Kev.