Please defeat SOPA

ScottL · Post by **ScottL** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:48 pm

MSimon wrote:
I didn't say anything about perpetual protection, just what it is as it appears. As for your private insurance, a lot of good a contract holds if one of the parties of the contract dies due to negligence of the other party. Contracts outside of life/death are a different story.
Well nothing is certain in this life. But I still think a contract from a company is worth more than a promise from government. Generally. What happens when the group you belong to becomes inconvenient to government?

In America it would probably be people with AIDS. Or PTSD. Esp. PTSD. If you got it in the military - well that is honorable. If your step-father molested you? Things are tough all over. Besides there is no known cure - except time. For some a decade or two is enough. For others a lifetime is not enough.

I'm sure you have your prejudices in Europe as well.

With the whole world in financial collapse it would be wise to think of these things. The debts will either be repudiated or inflated away.

BTW I don't understand your distrust of business. You are in business. Insurance is full of moral hazard on all sides. More so when government runs it because you add in political hazard. Why are insurance companies any more prone to chisel than you are?

Here are some stats that might interest you:

Fraud against gov. medical programs: 30%
Fraud against private medical programs: 1%
Medical insurance company gross profits: 30%

So basically the insurance companies make their money by fighting fraud. A net benefit to the economy. Do they get overzealous? No doubt. Or you can have a medical community known for its corruption.

So where are medical costs coming down? Elective surgery. Stuff you have to pay for out of pocket. Big clue there.

I don't trust big business, but generally I'm fine with small business. There's something to be said about a business that actually knows its customers and market vs the large one where you become just another figure in their weekly reports. This is so for insurance companies as they are large and have little incentive to provide anything more than the minimum service required to continue business, whether they're contracted to do more or not.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:00 pm

They'd be first order fools to do a wholesale shutdown of major sites.

Uhm, its not like they havent tried before...

http://techcrunch.com/2010/06/23/youtub ... acom-case/

The SOPA and PIPA might give these old cases new wind and they might try the same thing again.

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:27 am

I don't trust big business, but generally I'm fine with small business.

I have found big business (at least in the technology area) pretty honest. Expensive but honest - at least when it comes to the technicals.

If big business was not honest it would be extremely chancy to get on an airplane.

Does big business lobby government - sure. More effectively than small business - to be sure. The corrective for that - smaller government - is up to the citizens.

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:46 am

This is so for insurance companies as they are large and have little incentive to provide anything more than the minimum service required to continue business, whether they're contracted to do more or not.

And that is part of the moral hazard. I was sorry to see Congress kill Medical Savings Accounts which might have had the effect of at least putting cost pressure on the lower cost procedures. With insurance taking up the slack for catastrophic events.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:35 am

I have found big business (at least in the technology area) pretty honest.

I have found the opposite.
Siemens, e.g. is a corrupt swamp of scum and villainy.

palladin9479 · Post by **palladin9479** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:46 am

MSimon wrote:
This is so for insurance companies as they are large and have little incentive to provide anything more than the minimum service required to continue business, whether they're contracted to do more or not.
And that is part of the moral hazard. I was sorry to see Congress kill Medical Savings Accounts which might have had the effect of at least putting cost pressure on the lower cost procedures. With insurance taking up the slack for catastrophic events.

Sorry been out of the loop for a bit.

I tend to agree with MSimon on most things, being a fiscal conservative that I am.

My only disagreement is that companies have no obligation to be honest or express any form of morality nor ethics. They are by nature greedy and profit seeking. This isn't a bad thing, its the driving force that makes capitalism work and I like that. When companies get so big that they can sway government policy, they will always, without fail, seek to sway laws and policy's so their competitive favor. I'll get back to this point in a minute.

The balance to a companies greed is the universal laws of supply vs demand. Company's supply products, the consumers provide demand. If a Company's product is sub-par or not to the desires of the consumer, then the consumer will go to a different supplier. This is the incentive for companies to deal honestly with customers, bad publicity is bad business.

Now lets go back to a business using it's size to get policy / laws passed that favor it. If a company can do this, then it can dramatically reduce the balancing effect supply vs demand has on it. They don't need to supply a better product, they simply remove a consumers alternatives and thus force demand to their product. There is where we move from capitalism to corporatism where an economy is no longer based on supply vs demand and is now based on big business's vs consumers.

With respect to "healthcare", we're doing it wrong period, no sane person can defend the current US system. I happen to live in a democratic country that practices government regulated healthcare. It happens to be in the worlds top 11 economy's and is growing. There are no crazy long waits at hospitals. If anything, South Korea is more capitalistic then the USA. So any attempt to paint a negative picture will get rebuffed with actual experience.

The governments responsibility in healthcare is not to provide for it, but to ensure the private providers are playing fair. The laws of supply vs demand do not functional the same with healthcare as they do with widgets, computers and cars. The demand for not only your life but your good health is infinite, the supply for those things is limited and controlled by a few players who do not compete with each other. Now we can't alter the demand for your health, but we can alter the supply side of this. Mainly by allowing insurance companies to compete across state lines and authorizing tax-free / deductible (deduct contributions from income earned) MSA's that could be used to pay for health care expenses only. Doing just that would drop the price on healthcare, further deregulation would drop the price even more. You don't need to see a phD for a sniffle / cold / flu. You don't need to see a phD for small fractures (hairline cracks). You do need to see a phD for cardiac problems or other serious health issues.

Anyhow, MSA's were removed because they directly threaten the health insurance companies profits. Say what you want about that bastardized healthcare package that was passed, it incredibly favors the financial provides for the Republican Party. The mandated insurance policy's alone are worth billions in profits. Talk about infinite demand and all that.

-Edit-

MSimon, currently our insurance companies are under no requirement to actually provide the promise for service they've been paid for. "Preexisting Conditions" isn't something people made up, it is a very common tactic for an Insurance company to shed unprofitable contracts (people's health we're talking about). "Unreported medical conditions" is another one, if you had a headache at anytime and didn't report that headache to the insurance company, you've failed to report a medical condition and your insurance is subject to immediate termination. "Improper Documentation" is another one, if any documentation is filled out incorrectly, even if you were not the one filling it out, then your contract may be subject to immediate termination. And the ultimate one "invalid appraisal", basically you were granted coverage that the company felt you shouldn't be, even if you paid for it and even if all the paperwork is legit.

Right now the insurance companies are in control of state legislation which is significantly more important then federal legislation. Trying to fight your insurance company to pay for any expensive treatment is entirely within your state legal system, and it's a battle field they control. They have bigger legal teams with lots of money and a near infinite supply of cash to fund an extended legal battle. You have your life savings and whatever salary you may or may not have (fired due to health reasons). The chances of you winning against the insurance company if they decide your no longer profitable is very slim. It's possible, especially if you get some media attention going on, but it's not likely.

CaptainBeowulf · Post by **CaptainBeowulf** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:09 pm

U.S. online piracy bill headed for major makeover:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/ ... Q320120117

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:15 pm

I think the bill should be scrapped all together, but that wont happen. They will pretend to have improved the bills by making the language more ambiguous (like they did with the NDAA) and then pass it anyway.
Especially lately, it has become quite evident that the lawmakers dont give a darn about what their people want. They only care about what the money tells them to do. Sellouts all together!

TDPerk · Post by **TDPerk** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:52 am

From the inimitable Instapundit.

Yes, SOPA is as bad as they say.

How long will GIThruster continue the brave front, that SOPA is a fine thing, all about protecting IP, and that he can still support it?

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:07 pm

The US congress has not been representing the US people in at least 10 years, probably longer. Why would anyone assume that any of the current laws proposed in the senate have the best interest of the general public in mind?

GIThruster · Post by **GIThruster** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:37 pm

TDPerk wrote:How long will GIThruster continue the brave front, that SOPA is a fine thing, all about protecting IP, and that he can still support it?

I have been saying for many pages, that I do not agree with the ex parte provision that JoD would be allowed the blocking action sans defense by the supposedly offending party, but I think anyone who understands that things like pirating are indeed theft, has to admit the idea behind the two bills is solid.

I have clearly demonstrated that those making the loudest noise here in their anti-SOPA stance, don't understand the issues. For instance, I've had to repeatedly explain that the blocking action is reserved to JoD alone, and thus charges that the bill allows private companies to block one another have no merit whatsoever.

I've also shown that the vast bulk of arguments against the bill are based upon a desire on the part of many to be able to continue to steal from others.

It's pretty obvious once the discussion moves from the due process issue to the idea of what IP ought to be, people are just blathering about how they think it's okay to steal. People arguing that thus and such ought to be in the public domain, and other obvious indicators that those making the arguments are thieves who want to continue to steal and want to promote that others continue to steal.

21 million copies of Avatar stollen, and there are all manner of people who think that's okay. Obviously, these people are morally bankrupt.

Teahive · Post by **Teahive** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:00 pm

GIThruster wrote:but I think anyone who understands that things like pirating are indeed theft, has to admit the idea behind the two bills is solid.

I'd put it this way: the stated intention of the bills is solid. Whether they are effective tools in fighting copyright infringement may be doubted.

It's pretty obvious once the discussion moves from the due process issue to the idea of what IP ought to be, people are just blathering about how they think it's okay to steal. People arguing that thus and such ought to be in the public domain, and other obvious indicators that those making the arguments are thieves who want to continue to steal and want to promote that others continue to steal.

Arguing for changes in the law doesn't make one a criminal.

Betruger · Post by **Betruger** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:46 am

Megaupload shut down without SOPA/PIPA.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:15 pm

Megaupload shut down without SOPA/PIPA.

And I seriously doubt it was justified. I think it was the big media corps showing their muscle after Megaupload filed a lawsuit against one of them for the illegal takedown of a song/video and illegal claim of copyright violation.
On the other hand the big media corps like Sony get away with stealing from artists ALL THE TIME. Most compilations available in stores are never paying royalties to the artists. Artists protesting are shut down and told to shut up. I think one of them filed a class action lawsuit once togeher with a few others, but nobody ever heard anything about it. Thats of course because duuh, the big media corps wont make news out of their own crimes.

GIThruster · Post by **GIThruster** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:28 pm

Hard to take anyone wearing a tin-foil hat seriously.

So what do you propose is the correct response to the $100 billion stollen from Americans each year?

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/20/opinion/s ... index.html

According to the US Chamber of Commerce, "Rogue Web sites that steal America's innovative and creative products attract more than 53 billion visits a year and threaten more than 19 million American jobs."

http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-57329 ... t-you-faq/