Go Navy!

[GIThruster]

Me guess the reason surface ships use air to eject a torpedo is they aren't concerned with being quite, and air steaming out tour launch tubes is like unzipping your fly.

[KitemanSA]

Oh goody, another "LCS ... Little Crappy Ship"

[ladajo]

Me guess the reason surface ships use air to eject a torpedo is they aren't concerned with being quite, and air steaming out tour launch tubes is like unzipping your fly.

It is just easier that way for a ship. Less weight and mechanics, and yes, noise is not an issue for that. However, do note that a water push launch has its own noise levels, but, air is more noisy under water.

I for one, would really like to see HWT back on surface ships. And especially if we took a step back and did a complete modern tech overhaul for them. The 48 series is good, but the core design has remained consistant for decades.

[GIThruster]

Oh goody, another "LCS ... Little Crappy Ship"

You do realize that for the cost of a single Zumwalt class destroyer, we can build 5 Independence class ships and that the latter move more than 50% faster. They really are the best choice for hunting pirates and a handful of other things. Aluminum tri-hulls carrying UAV's and choppers are here to stay. Destroyers can't catch the tiny sport boats favored by today's pirates. The Independence class can, by being in 5X as many places at once.

[ladajo]

Destroyers can't catch the tiny sport boats favored by today's pirates

This is not accurate. Combatants can catch small craft on the ocean.

[GIThruster]

Destroyers can't catch the tiny sport boats favored by today's pirates

This is not accurate. Combatants can catch small craft on the ocean.

Well I think it matters how fast those small craft are, but if I understand the mission correctly, the anti-piracy and anti-smuggling roles do require higher speed and more coverage as in more ships are better than less, and they don't require armor, cruise missiles and the larger crews of what the Independence gets compared unfavorably against. Odds are this ship can do both anti-piratcy and anti-smuggling (Coast Guard) roles far better than much more expensive ships. We should not be comparing these against destroyers, but rather Coast Guard cutters, compared to which they are anything but crappy and little. And personally, I like that the Navy is going for smaller crews. This is just good stewardship of defense dollars.

But so far as chasing stuff down, so long as any ship can get within range in reasonable time, Firescouts can catch even go-fast boats and they are armed to. . . em. . . "stop" them if necessary.

[ladajo]

The average smuggler/pirate uses a 10 meter or smaller open hull craft for "speed" work. Some will use larger vessels, but they tend to be decked over and slower.
In open ocean or continental shelf areas with ocean swell, the average 10 meter and smaller boat has a very hard time above 25 knots. Even if running in the 25 to 30 kt regime, its engineering typically can not sustain it for very long (single digit hours at best). Also, the crew gets the living daylights beaten out of them. Meanwhile a warship at 25 kts rides very well and can do so for days. And this is not an engineering limitation, but a fuel one for the warship. But that said, the warship will have fuel long after the "go-fast" does not.

In addition, as you pointed out, armed aircraft have the ability to range out, and if required, engage the "go-fast" and take out an engine. The loss of just one engine will end any ability to sustain speed for a small craft. Even in a multi-engine boat (say four), the loss of one will significantly degrade push and top end. In a twin engine boat, loss of one means loss of ability to plane and speed max's of 5 to 10 kts, boat dependent.

It is a myth to say that pirates and smugglers can outrun warships on the ocean at speed.

[GIThruster]

I don't want to get in a disagreement about it, but piracy and smuggling are both issues I have researched for use in possible screenplays, and it is only marginably useful to talk about average smuggler/pirates. I understand what you're saying above and it really is an oft overlooked fact that military ships ride better, have better endurance, have the amazing eyes they have especially now with the UAV's added to the role, etc. But it it also true that what gets by the Navy and the Coast Guard is substantial. For one, the Coast Guard seldom catches go-fast boats. If you want to have some impact on smuggling and piracy you can do what we've been doing. If you want to end smuggling and piracy, you need to do something more. Internationally smuggling and piracy are both at epidemic proportions, so we really do need to do better. The successful pirates and smugglers never get caught (hence why they are "successful"!) so they're whom we need to address, and lots of successful smugglers drive go-fast boats.

The real game changer here is this new M-80 Stiletto when it goes into service. It's already seen some trial runs down in Columbia. 60 knots. That's blinding bloody fast. Some sources say 80 knots but I don't believe them.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/m80-stiletto/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lQzJO1Ly-A

This thing has no armor at all, so it needs to be able to disable other craft with a drone of some sort, but I don't imagine that being too far off. In fact if we had drones that could fire say, a 20mm to disable craft, it's reasonable we would not know about them.

[hanelyp]

How big does a ship need to be to have good handling in waves and good endurance?

[GIThruster]

Depends upon the size of the waves and shape of the hull. Traditionally, deep V hulls are considered to have the best wave handling since they cut through rather than ride upon the waves, making a smoother, in many ways faster ride. The surface is longer than the line a V hull cuts through the waves since the line is flat and the surface is far from flat--far from a straight line.) Coast Guard Cutters are designed for "endurance" and are fielded alone as opposed to most Navy vessels and thus may instruct better on the issues of anti-piracy and smuggling. Cutters are here in distinction to smaller "patrol cruisers" that the M80 Stiletto represents, which are restricted to littoral service by their inability to house crew for long durations. They are not really intended to be lived on for long periods. Cutters are and most navy ships are. Note here though, my point about the Independence class. It is already significantly larger than the largest Coast Guard Cutters. Endurance and seaworthiness are not issues here, and these ships need to operate alone or their magnificent speed is never realized.

If you want to be effective in littoral waters, its obvious you can't have a deep V hull. So this automatically promotes smaller ships. If you're going to make them smaller, the option to make them faster presents itself forcefully. There's a lot involved tactically when you are suddenly faster than your opponent. US Navy has been all over this for a long time, and they typically hear complaints about the ships being too small. Most people think bigger means better and often it does, but not in the littoral theater.

Another cool thing US Navy is doing is with SeaFighter, again based on the needs for the littoral theater:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Fighter

I'm sure it will be some time before enough lessons are learned to build a new class here, but this is all good work. Freedom, Independence, Stiletto and Sea Fighter can all work together in an environment where the bigger ships can't go, and much more quickly as well. So lets turn the question around. Why would we NOT build ships for the littoral areas?

What I'm more interested in with these light, fast ships is the Close In Weapons Systems for them. The M80 doesn't have room for one, but all the others have something. The Independence uses the SeaRam:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SeaRAM

but I can't help wonder whether it wouldn't be better served with 4 Millenium Gun's mounted on the corners of the pad:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_M ... Gun_System

[ladajo]

Ship handling is a function of righting moment, length to width and expected wave periods. In general terms, a well ballasted long hull will ride better.

GIT,
The long of the short of this is multi-fold. I will try to boil it down.

First thing of note is Sea Fighter is dead and has been for years. What you call Sea Fighter, the navy calls LCS.

I appreciate your interest and research into interdiction operations. While you are correct (somewhat) about leakers, the error in is in your mixing arguments. Leakers occur mostly due to coverage limitations or lack of intelligence.
So on one hand, coverage can be improved via several mechanisms, to include more platforms as you have stated. On the other, catching someone is a function of seeing them. If you see them, chances are you will catch them. This is the part you don't understand so well, because you believe the myth that small craft can outrun a warship at sea.

While you have done "research", I have lived it. I have extensive experience operating (that means driving or being in charge of driving) small high powered craft and warships. I have hunted and caught pirates and smugglers around the world. I have a half a clue what I am talking about. Stilletto is gucci, but it is not built for interdiction. It's focus lays elsewhere. And yes, I have touched one.

With enough power you can make anything that floats run like a raped ape. But can the operators and pax take the physics, can you control it and how long will it keep it up before it breaks or runs out of gas?
As a footnote here, you should be advised that in offshore racing, the boat that finishes the race is normally the winner, given the other boats break.

As a "research" project, how about you look up what kind of seats are mounted in Mk. Vs and how much they cost. Then ask yourself "why?"
And for the record, I have done over 80 kts on the surface. Also, my longest air time while on the stick in a boat was a 5 thousand count off Government Cut in Miami in a twin 300HP 27ft Catamaran.

[ladajo]

I forgot to cover your weapons point.

Think power and deck loading needs. Then think vessel stability.

As for LCS 1 & 2 classes, I am extremely familiar with both. In person even. I'll leave it at that.
In my more than casual opinion, they both have strengths and weaknesses. But in the agreggate, both have utility for naval operations as force multipliers.
When talking LCS (either), it is most important to remember two things; what they are and what they are not.

[GIThruster]

On the other, catching someone is a function of seeing them. If you see them, chances are you will catch them. This is the part you don't understand so well, because you believe the myth that small craft can outrun a warship at sea.

I understand it just fine. Anyone can look up all the references online of go-fast boats used for smuggling. And as I said, warships are faster than they seem since they don't travel the surface but a shorter distance between two points, but spotting a go-fast does not mean it will get caught. We spot them and have them get away often. Criminals brag about this. It's a badge of honor for them to scoot off at 80 knots. In particular, cocaine runners use go-fasts and that's how they earn a living. If we're ever to stop them earning a living this way, probably it will be because these new LCS's and Legend class Cutters are flying Firescouts and covering vastly more area.

[Betruger]

Where do I read in detail (as much as an AAR's) how such a thing happens. A zodiac boat somehow escaping from a warship that's actually trying to intercept/neutralize. Couldn't a cheap drone with stabilized optics lase such a boat for the warship to hit with some non-lethal payload?

edit- Never mind, I guess that's the sort of thing the Firescout program does.

[ladajo]

We spot them and have them get away often.

Well, .... no. That does not happen if we want to stop them.

It's a badge of honor for them to scoot off at 80 knots.

Well, ...uhhh...no. That does not happen ever. I don't know what you are reading but I can assure you that is a fantasy.
There is no smuggler or pirate with an 80 knot boat doing runs on the ocean.

And, no, you have probably read some things, but you don't understand it, and probably won't until you do it (alot) like I have.
Like I said, I have done interdiction, I have succeeded at interdiction, I have taught interdiction to our military (not just navy) and law enforcement, and also foreign militaries.
You are barking up the wrong tree here.