Jones: No Warming For 15 Years

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taniwha
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:51 am

Post by taniwha »

tomclarke: Your assumptions are decidedly lacking. I've read recently that the effects of CO2 are logarithmic (I don't know if that's the absorption, or its affect on temperature), so your "ax" is wrong from the start as logarithmic is decidedly non-linear (as x gets bigger, you have to add more x to get the same change in y). Then there's P=σAT^4 (P=radiative power) for blackbody radiation. More non-linearities.

Your math doesn't even assume equilibrium, as that is irrelevant. At most, it might be assuming small-signal changes, which in some circumstances do allow you to linearize things to a limited degree (depending on where you are on the curve).
So in summary, how can I disagree with your statement that "we don't know"? It would take 1000s of scientists and papers, with tens of years of effort to hone the wheat from the chaff and reach solid conclusions, to reah any conclusions.... (Oh, I forgot, that has happenned, but you don't accept the results).
It has most decidedly not already happened. There was a relatively small handful of "scientists", and a few more papers published by that handful. Far more papers written by other scientists were suppressed by that handful and their cronies (as admitted in their emails). There is darn good reason to not accept their results, whether they be right or wrong.

It does not take 1000s of papers and scientists to do anything. It can take just one paper that survives the tests of sufficient scientists that others are satisfied. The above handful of scientists did not allow that to happen.

You talk about "the scientifically illiterate public". In my mind, being scientifically illiterate does not mean that one's knowledge is lacking, but rather one's understanding of the scientific process is deficient.

The scientific method is about publishing one's work (all of it: hypothesis, data, models, processes, results, and probably some other's I've forgotten) to allow others to reproduce one's work. If one's work is good, it will stand on its own: no need to suppress papers or attack people's characters. Bad papers will have other papers demonstrating the faults of the bad papers. Good papers will have other papers showing confirmation.

seedload
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Post by seedload »

Josh Cryer wrote:seedload, the image posted is the mass balance of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet.

The paper I posted showed the mass balance of all of Antarctica is decreasing.

Here is a better (more recent) paper: http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v2/n ... eo694.html

The image was posted because denialists have a hard time reading words.
Look Josh. Clearly this graphic and the linked article are talking about an increase in the rate of ice loss. I can read words. You said, "Antarctica is losing massive ice volume." You said, "The image I posted shows total ice mass is down. Significantly." It is clearly not.

To what end are you defending this mistake? Defending the indefensible again, this time insulting my reading ability, and, oddly enough, doing so when I am clearly right and you are clearly wrong. So strange.

This is a trend in acceleration of ice loss of the West Antartic ice sheet. The East Antartic is growing slightly. Compared to the overall ice mass of the entire Antartic, these numbers are very small. We have no real idea of natural variability in these ice sheets. Trends of 30 years are shorter than PDO cycles and other natural cycles of the planet and cannot be used as evidence of anything IMHO.

regards

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

But loooking at the participants: a few ideologically motivated bloggers + the scientifically illiterate public on one side, scientists - both climate change & those from the "edges" of the research who have taken a dispassionate look on the other side - I fear not.
Wishful thinking bording on delusion, Tom, and quite unscientific reasoning. The scientists on the AGW side are just as ideological and draw their paychecks from their conclusions, and in fact forecasting scientists and physicists have stated the IPCC claims are not well-founded.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... uc3902.htm

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/01/28/f ... g-climate/

With all the billions being thrown at AGW research, there's no excuse for not going back and doing a real scientific forecast, one that doesn't violate 72 fundamental principles of scientific forecasting as well as general principles of good scientific research. The handwaving and doomsaying may be good political theater for scaring up funding, but it should never be confused with real science.

This is the difference between "Science" as just accepting arguments from scientific authority ("we're scientists, therefore we are right") and "science" as the practice of the scientific method.
n*kBolt*Te = B**2/(2*mu0) and B^.25 loss scaling? Or not so much? Hopefully we'll know soon...

Diogenes
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Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

tomclarke wrote:[

MSimon,

I wish very much that you were right. But loooking at the participants: a few ideologically motivated bloggers + the scientifically illiterate public on one side, scientists - both climate change & those from the "edges" of the research who have taken a dispassionate look on the other side - I fear not.


Yes, I am an ideologue. However, I originally bought the Global Warming theory a few years back. I had my doubts though. My ideological side kept asking me "How can people who have never been right about anything, be right about this?"


What changed my mind was the Spectrographic Absorption of Water Vapor compared to Carbon Dioxide. That, and the realization that 3/4s of the surface of the earth is covered with water. That, and evaporation.

Obviously, water vapor has to be the number one factor in determining the absorption characteristics of the Atmosphere. Evaporation increases with heat, therefore the planet went into a runaway greenhouse effect 4 billion years ago, and there is no life on this planet.

Wait a minute... That can't be right!

If water vapor is the dominant effect, and we're not all dead, it must be a Negative feedback system.

(ergo, the leftest have an unbroken record of always being wrong.)

Clouds. More water vapor makes more clouds which reflects more light, so less gets absorbed. Clouds Shadow the atmosphere and prevent heat absorption. Water is a Major negative feedback factor for Planet earth.

(Water vapor is a Positive effect when it's a vapor, it becomes a negative effect when it forms into clouds.)


Another Negative feedback factor for the atmosphere is the fact that it expands when heated, creating a greater surface area. The greater surface area aids in the radiation of heat into space, and probably the increased loss of atmosphere due to the solar wind has an additional cooling effect.

The system self regulates, and the effects of the regulation completely overwhelm the positive feedback influence of Carbon Dioxide and Methane.

Diogenes
Posts: 6968
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

3/4ths Water.



3/4ths Water.



3/4ths Water!



3/4ths Water!




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Diogenes
Posts: 6968
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

Heat ^ Evaporation.




Heat ^ Evaporation.




Heat ^ Evaporation!




Heat ^ Evaporation.





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:)

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

So in summary, how can I disagree with your statement that "we don't know"? It would take 1000s of scientists and papers, with tens of years of effort to hone the wheat from the chaff and reach solid conclusions, to reah any conclusions.... (Oh, I forgot, that has happenned, but you don't accept the results).
With sceptic papers suppressed how is it possible to say that both sides in the disagreement have been fairly represented?

To accept known corrupted science is to be a corrupter of science.

The whole scare is not dependent on CO2. It is dependent on Water Vapor. Which is not well understood. And that little gem is agreed to by warmists and sceptics alike.

And then there are the surface stations. In the US, stations unaffected by the UHI effect show NO WARMING (statistically significant) for the last 50 years.

And consider Tom. Could you be a dupe in the

WAR ON COAL

Just something to think about. When it was global cooling - coal plants were the enemy. Now with warming - coal plants are the enemy. I'm beginning to detect a pattern. Perhaps James "Coal Trains are Auschwitz Trains" Hansen can tell us more.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

mvanwink5
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Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:07 am
Location: N.C. Mountains

Post by mvanwink5 »

The latest trouble with lower than expected retail sales has been blamed on the snow. However, it has been pointed out that spring fashion merchandise in stores may be a contributing factor in troubled sales. Perhaps marketers were listening to those talking up climate change and supposed resulting early springs? Is the economy another victim of bad science?
Counting the days to commercial fusion. It is not that long now.

Diogenes
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Post by Diogenes »

Image

taniwha
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Post by taniwha »

Come back here and fight like a man! I'll bite your leg off!

csgt428
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Post by csgt428 »

The Earths climate has been going thru some fairly wild swings if one looks back over several hundred thousand years according to the antarctic ice cores being brought up. There are some scientists who think we may be heading back into a cooling period based on this and other data. I don't think there is any real debate that man IS a factor now, as WELL as natural processes. The real question is how MUCH of a factor man is. Without understanding the progresion and extent of natural cycles it is obviously very difficult to ascertain mans impact. In other words there are now TWO inputs, mans and natures.

EricF
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Location: Pell City, Alabama

Post by EricF »

Diogenes wrote:Image
I think they meant 'It's only a flesh wound' :D

IntLibber
Posts: 747
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:28 pm

Post by IntLibber »

Josh Cryer wrote:
"No statistically significant warming in the last 15 years" is completely and utterly different from "no warming in last 15 years."it.
Actually, it does. If the claimed warming signal is not greater than the error bars, then you cannot conclusively say that the purported rise is signal or noise.

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