Economic Facts and Fallacies

[jmc]

Actually it is trauma combined with genetics which spreads addiction. It is pretty well documented. I'm assuming you have read the literature. If so it just goes to show how hard it is for people to change their beliefs even when confronted with evidence. Which is why death is so useful. Most folks stop learning at age 20 or so. This idea (death changes persistent wrong ideas) is well documented in the field of science. And the nature of addiction IS a scientific question.

I have been fortunate in being able to change major parts of my world view several times in my 60+ years. Most people are not built that way. With people living longer (a good thing) bad ideas are more persistent.

I once confronted a retired Sheriff with my evidence (when it was much sparser) and got him to change his mind. Being a religious man he was very sorry that he had persecuted so many for nothing.

Note we have a wide range of drugs now for treating various mental conditions. Some are legal. Some are not. However, they all go to the same set of receptors in the brain. And we do not count it as addiction if your medicine comes through approved channels. Which is rank superstition. Cargo cult science.

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... holes.html

Let me go further. Hate is another well known addiction. To my knowledge it has never been studied in the context of brain chemistry. However, you can see its advantage in evolution. It is a survival mechanism. It is not very intelligent though.

On your NIDA link:

Its a big website, I found a comment on it saying addiction was 40-60% hereditory. To me that's a far cry from saying your genes determine whether you are going to become an addict or not. In any case if you have any links to papers with numbers of participants etc. that would be of interest to me.

Past trauma may well be a big part in addiction, my point is drug addiction doesn't solve it if anything it will make the addicts life worse. I already gave examples of how drug problems create trauma rather than solve it. I reject your belief that this is because they are illegal. Alchohol causes plenty of problems from street violence through drink-driving to liver cerosis.

Perhaps nicotine does help schitzophrenics, I give you enough credit to take what you said in your blogs seriously and I presume you've done the research. That doesn't change the fact that they are poisonous and that 1/4 of smokers die as a result of them. My father's friend has emphacemia and can't lecture anymore because he smokes he's in his early 50's. Another example of how legalizing something doesn't make all those problems magically dissappear.

Regarding to your statement that the view that prescribing drugs is better them off the black market is "Cargo Cult Scence". I also disagree. Being prescribed a drug, be it heroine, nicotine or marujana is a world away from just "deciding to experiment", a drug has profound effect on the life of a user, some are long term, some are short term. Some are positive many are negative. The future results of taking a drug are not at all obvious to a users who decides to copy his friends and "experiment". The results of taking a drug also depend on the dosage. Someone whose hyperactive shouldn't take a stimulant, someone whose lethargic shouldn't be one sedatives. The difference between a medicine and a poison can be as split on as fine a line as who takes a substance, when they take it, how much they take and how often. To ensure any substance which profoundly affects the body is not abused, they need to be prescribed by a skilled physician who has dedicated his life to studying all the affects and result of taking a substance so that they are taken by the right people at the right time with the right dosage in order to have a positive rather than a negative impact on peoples lives.

I hate drug dealing. Drug dealers are people who push impure products to vulnerable people, with no investigation of their position their situation or the correct dosage, with total apathy regarding their affects on the lives of the users so long as they make a quick buck. I'm not out to demonize users. But drug dealing is one of the great evils of our time.

[MSimon]

Its a big website, I found a comment on it saying addiction was 40-60% hereditory.

Yes. It is a two factor problem. The other factor is trauma or what the NIDA prefers unnamed "environmental factors".

And if the fear memories in the amygdala take 10 or 40 years to decay off (depending on the severity of the trauma and genetics) then you will be "addicted" to the drugs for 10 or 40 years. Every year 5% of "addicts" quit using drugs (which would be expected if the fear memories decay over time). With treatment we can get that rate up to an astounding 5%. So do you think the places that provide "treatment" for "addiction" are going to tell you the true nature of the problem and put themselves out of business? Are you dreaming?

If you can be bothered:

http://www.mpg.de/english/illustrations ... ws0217.htm

if you have more time:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... ystem.html

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2004/09/heroin.html

At this time there is no known drug that can flush the amygdala of fear memories. The condition is chronic. So in the best tradition of western medicine all we can do is to make the patient as comfortable as possible. No problem. If you have the money doctors have medicines that will help. If you don't have the money you can go to the gypsy drug store and if we catch you we will punish you severely. A fair and just system to be sure. And the doctors? If you are rich you can get anything you want. If you are poor doctors will be hesitant to prescribe because you might be an addict scamming the system. So off to the gypsy drug store it is. After all police and prison guards and judges and lawyers need jobs. Oh don't forget the politicians who will gladly cater to ignorance to get elected. Better yet they prefer you remain ignorant. It will be easier to push your hot buttons. Elections are not won on reason. They are won on emotion. So the politician will lie to you even if it counters his/her own belief. Moving up in the pecking order is way more important than truth.

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... s-war.html

But you know it is part of the human condition not to care much about another's pain outside our kin group. Not very civilized. Quite human.

And we love to punish differences. Not very civilized. Quite human.

And we show our civilized nature by having a list of who you are allowed to hate. And who you are not. Drug dealers you can hate as much as you want. Doctors who provide similar medicines (they go to the same receptors) are praised and have high status. All fine and dandy when the information was thin and not very scientific. Despicable (IMO) when we know better. And we do know better (for those who care to look).

The veneer of civilization is quite thin.

Jesus had the answer. Love one another. Yet 2,000 years later we still prefer hate. Religion only goes so far. Which is not far at all.

[Jeff Peachman]

[quote=ravingdave]Don't get me wrong, I think prisons are not a good solution to the problem. I don't favor prisons. The idea that you are going to fix anyone by boring them to death for months or years is just silly. I've been thinking for years that some sort of mandatory educational boot-camp like facility would be better. Growing a few minds couldn't be a bad idea could it ?[/quote]

I'm sorry to go off on a tangent but I really don't have time to read this entire thread. This caught my eye though because its something I've always thought would be a good idea. At minimum, books could be provided for free and a sentence could be lessened if you meet certain educational standards (such as earning your GED). There might also be courses for trade schools. I've had difficulty trying to imagine how to implement higher education, but internet-courses might be plausible. Some rigorous courses in ethics certainly couldn't hurt.

However, what's the punishment if you happen to be the Unabomber, with a PhD in mathematics?

[Nanos]

> communism

I've never really looked into what this is, could someone describe in a few words the difference between that and the approach we use in the west ?


Zmodem, I have looked over the years and there is rather a lack of examples, let alone documentation! Even the commerical Zmodem packages fail to work..

Its needed to communicate with an old application that only has Zmodem to communicate with it and cannot be changed!


> it smells bad. Don't argue. It does. Pretty
> much every non-smoker agrees

As a non-smoker, I agree!


> The USSR was based on just the system you say
> will improve our lot in life.

They had equal hourly wages ?

I thought that people at the top paid themselves more than those at the bottom still ?


> our house

You have a house

Does everyone in the US have a house ?


> Let the rich increase the capital stock as fast
> as they can. We will all be better off

I haven't seen at least in the UK, any improvements for the poor at the bottom in the last 40 years, in fact, rents have gone up far more than wages, so its now harder to afford to live in a house than before!


> What do you get out of it? Cheaper products

How do we get cheaper housing ?


The links posted about "fear memories" I found particularly interesting, I wonder if during the last few decades I had taken some kind of drugs it would have made me better ?

(Bullied as a child, abducted, as an adult lived in crime ridden neighbourhood.)


Your point about the rich being able to afford legal drugs is most interesting. And whilst I can see the logic in legalising drugs, I do also see the fallout of doing so like with alcohol.


> Drug dealers you can hate as much as you want

Having lived next door to some, they do make the most ideal neighbours, always keen to keep themselves to themselves and avoid trouble, and take security seriously.


> mandatory educational boot-camp like facility
> would be better

Whist on the face of it, that makes sense. You rapidly approach the stage where you are rewarding bad behaviour.

Eg. a poor person without a job cannot afford to get an education, yet if they do something bad and go into prison, like in the UK you can get lots of free education, they even give you a free house and a job when you get out if you've been really bad!

Prison only seems to serve the purpose of keeping such people off the streets and away from victims.


Its a bit similar to how would you stop bullying in schools, the only solution I'm aware of that would work is filling the place top to bottom with security guards and 24/7 CCTV in every corner.

In 30 years since I went to school, nothing has changed in that area.

[MSimon]

They had equal hourly wages ?

I thought that people at the top paid themselves more than those at the bottom still ?

The people at the top alway pay themselves more. Everywhere and always.

You really need to get better grounded in history and human nature.

What you espouse is something once called "The New Socialist Man". A stupid fantasy. It is better to work with the defects of the old model. They always appear and wreck utopian plans.

Start with a study of "alpha male". Women want them. Bernard Shaw once said that a woman would prefer 1/10th of a first rate man to all of a second rate one. He got it. And yet he was a Fabian Socialist.

BTW the British problem is that it has been going down the socialist road for 100 years. Its per capita economic growth is anemic. Its social order sclerotic. The welfare state is too big and merit will not advance you as fast as it will in the USA.

And a little brain chemistry is involved. We are designed to want more. When we get a flood of endorphins from doing good or accomplishing something (I got a paty raise!) if the endorphin supply is steady the brain builds new receptors. So you will not be on top of the world for long. New desires will manifest. BTW this also is why long term heroin users can tolerate doses that would kill ordinary folks. The body alters.

For most there is never enough. Few are content to be "hungry".

May I also suggest the book Siddhartha (sp?) by Herman Hesse? Just keep in mind that the desire for "nothing" is also a desire and the people who desire it are rare.

[MSimon]

And why does housing not respond in what we today expect in the way of continuous improvement?

Read Buckminster Fuller on the subject. The short answer. Unions. Rules. Regulations. Tradition. His books "Nine Chains To The Moon" and "Critical Path" are good starting points. Plus there is tons of material on the www.

[ravingdave]

I'm sorry to go off on a tangent but I really don't have time to read this entire thread. This caught my eye though because its something I've always thought would be a good idea. At minimum, books could be provided for free and a sentence could be lessened if you meet certain educational standards (such as earning your GED). There might also be courses for trade schools. I've had difficulty trying to imagine how to implement higher education, but internet-courses might be plausible. Some rigorous courses in ethics certainly couldn't hurt.

However, what's the punishment if you happen to be the Unabomber, with a PhD in mathematics?

I wasn't refering exclusively to academic knowledge. I was thinking more along the lines of functional life knowledge. Basic economics ( something which I think the majority of the first world citizens don't seem to understand.) basic right and wrong, basic obligations, empathy, work ethic, common goals, teamwork, trust, etc.

The problem with the Unabomber is he obviously didn't learn a few non academic things that most people did.


David

[Nanos]

Actually I think criminals learn rather more functional life knowledge than we give them credit for.

Just because someone does something wrong, doesn't mean they don't know its wrong, its more common that they do it on purpose!

Of course, asking them if they think its wrong, they will tell you what you need to hear, not what is really going on in their mind..

I've seen incredible teamwork among criminals, excellent work ethic, strong obligations to friends, family and fellow criminals..

I'm not quite sure what you can teach someone that already knows the fast track to wealth that the other way is any better..

[MSimon]

Actually I think criminals learn rather more functional life knowledge than we give them credit for.

Just because someone does something wrong, doesn't mean they don't know its wrong, its more common that they do it on purpose!

Of course, asking them if they think its wrong, they will tell you what you need to hear, not what is really going on in their mind..

I've seen incredible teamwork among criminals, excellent work ethic, strong obligations to friends, family and fellow criminals..

I'm not quite sure what you can teach someone that already knows the fast track to wealth that the other way is any better..

No thief wants his stuff stolen.

[ravingdave]

Actually I think criminals learn rather more functional life knowledge than we give them credit for.

Just because someone does something wrong, doesn't mean they don't know its wrong, its more common that they do it on purpose!

Of course, asking them if they think its wrong, they will tell you what you need to hear, not what is really going on in their mind..

I've seen incredible teamwork among criminals, excellent work ethic, strong obligations to friends, family and fellow criminals..

I'm not quite sure what you can teach someone that already knows the fast track to wealth that the other way is any better..

So they know some things, but not others. They have no empathy for others beyond their protected circle. "Might makes Right" is an instinctive human notion, and it requires a higher level of thought to see beyond one's own needs and desires. People should understand why stealing is wrong.


David

[MSimon]

People should understand why stealing is wrong.

Because it short circuits the productive system.

[hanelyp]

People should understand why stealing is wrong.

Because it short circuits the productive system.

Now if some politicians could just learn that, and how their wealth redistribution is the same thing.

[jmc]

Actually I think criminals learn rather more functional life knowledge than we give them credit for.

Just because someone does something wrong, doesn't mean they don't know its wrong, its more common that they do it on purpose!

Of course, asking them if they think its wrong, they will tell you what you need to hear, not what is really going on in their mind..

I've seen incredible teamwork among criminals, excellent work ethic, strong obligations to friends, family and fellow criminals..

I'm not quite sure what you can teach someone that already knows the fast track to wealth that the other way is any better..

So they know some things, but not others. They have no empathy for others beyond their protected circle. "Might makes Right" is an instinctive human notion, and it requires a higher level of thought to see beyond one's own needs and desires. People should understand why stealing is wrong.


David

What's the point in higher levels of thought if those who have them don't benefit and end up working as 9 to 5 servants 5 days a week, while criminals hang out in the discos scoring (and sometimes raping) the women?

The only way to stop crime is to make sure it doesn't pay!

[jmc]

MSimon:
I read those threads you posted about the mice the sexually abuse heroine users, the interview with that Israeli doctor etc.

Your argument that trauma is a large factor for drug abuse seems well grounded. The argument that everyone who has suffered trauma at a mild or medium level would do well to take drugs has no grounding. None of those threads you've forwarded show that the lives of these addicts is enhanced by drug abuse. The same applies to alchohol.

If someone suffers from trauma unless its very severe such as from PTSD the best thing to do is face squarely up to it. In many ways drugs are just a way of running away from it and exacerbate the problem rather than solve it. None of your threads show otherwise. If you have demons-lurking inside the worst thing you can do is get drunk, people without demons go to sleep, those with demons often caused by trauma end up engage in fights domestic abuse, rape and murder.

In some circumstances where the trauma is to great to bear, there may be a case for prescribing drugs.

In many cases I believe punishing the abuser reducing him or her to tears, is the best form of therapy rather than prescribing everymore drugs to numb the pain.

[MSimon]

Your argument that trauma is a large factor for drug abuse seems well grounded. The argument that everyone who has suffered trauma at a mild or medium level would do well to take drugs has no grounding.

I never said it did. Most people "get over it". The one's with the "wrong" genetics don't. For those drugs are indicated. In any case "addiction" is a function of the brain and when the need goes away so does the desire for drugs. i.e. the whole idea of addiction is cargo cult science. Phlogiston for those who don't know thermodynamics. Or epicycles for those who don't get orbital motion.

There are two main problems with drugs cause addiction:

1. Only a small percentage of those who try drugs get addicted
2. A certain percentage of those "addicted" give up drugs every year

To answer question #1 the idea of the "addictive personality" was invented. And you know what the definition of "addictive personality" finally was? Those who take drugs chronically. i.e. no identifying characteristics except the behavior that was trying to be explained.

And to explain #2 - people just get tired of the "lifestyle". More useless carp.

The model the NIDA now uses - genetics/biochemistry and environment explains the facts better than any alternative. Of course they can't come straight out and say trauma. That would make drug users sympathetic and might end the drug war gravy train. Jobs are at stake.

In any case Drs and hospitals now mostly use my model. However, they do not communicate what they know to the general public. It is taught in the best psychology classes though. Even at the jr college in my town. i.e. chronic drug use is self medication.