Algae fuel, impressive, it seems.

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KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

vankirkc wrote:The fly in the algae-for-biofuel ointment is nitrogen.
Actually, the fly in the ointment may be IRON. There are vast stretches of the oceans that have LOTS of nutrients but not much algea because of a lack of the micro-nutrient "iron". Spray a bit of iron, come back a week or two later and scoop up the algae bloom. Thousands, even millions of acres with practically free prodiuction cost.

Use automated skimming ships (sail?) to scoop it up and the price may become negligable.

There is enough of the Pacific in the HNLC (high nutrient, low chlorophyll) regions to provide several hundred percent of the TOTAL energy use by man on Earth. I've done the numbers. I used published numbers for production rates, etc., so all my numbers are dependant on theirs! :wink:

Helius
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Post by Helius »

vankirkc wrote: I'm beginning to think that fission is our only real hope, which is nasty because the waste byproducts from that are essentially eternal.
Not true if you reburn your actinides. Also if you could apply 4 or 5 neutrons / fission you could throw the nastiest stuff back into the mix, for a little extra alchemy. Most "waste" is really "spent" fuel, and only "spent" according to the frame of reference of a light water reactor. Only a few percent of the fuel rod's fuel gets "burned" by a LWR.

A great Fission/Fusion hybrid might be just the ticket.

Soylent
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Post by Soylent »

Mike Holmes wrote:OK, maybe not as apetizing as a good ear of corn... but it's supposed to be better for you...

Mike
That's not quite true for a few different reasons.

Expensive algae is only going to be used in omega-3 supplements and the like; very little consideration is given to taste.

What happens when algae becomes dirt-cheap is the same thing that happened when wheat became cheap; we invented pasta, pizza, breads, cookies, gluten-based fake meat, béchamel sauce and all sorts of other delicious wheat-based and wheat-containing products. Who knows what foods will be invented when you give millions of people with widely varying skillsets in cooking, food chemistry, entrepeneurship and so on cheap access to algae?

Cheap algae would be a huge component of fish-feed if realized; and I'd much rather eat fish than corn.

Fish farming is rapidly expanding across the world and currently represents more than half of global fish production(and sea-food in general). All this time we've been hunter-gathering fish rather than farming them; this leads to all sorts of problems that cause extremely low yields per unit area of ocean. You haven't got property rights so you get tragedy of the commons(each fish you catch has a concentrated profit, but the cost in reduced fish population is diffuse in that it hurts everyone a tiny little bit); even from the perspective of wanting to maximize sustainable fish catches and long term profits it would be more productive to do much less fishing. If you slaughter all the cows on a farm it leads to maximum profit today, but no profit next year so a farmer wouldn't make such a stupid decision; if the cows are unowned property and anyone can just come along and slaughter them the farmers incentive is to pre-empt everyone else and be the first to slaughter them so he can get the profits and he's certainly not going to invest in any capital equipment to maximize cattle-productivity. The result of this is that large predatory fish, the kinds humans like to eat, have declined in population by 90% over the last 50 years(the war on drugs and the various undeclared wars in the middle east might not be going too well but the war on fish is a major success).

The other major factor that makes fish farming so efficient is that you can separate fish by species and age group; predatory fish tends to eat their young and if they don't some other species we don't like to eat might.

The problem with farming something like salmon is that you're farming the equivalent of lions. They need a big helping of fishmeal for the high protein and the fat composition(similar to algae since that's what herbivorous fish, shrimp and so forth tend to eat). Fish farmers try to keep it at a minimum because of cost(it is also not sustainable at current rates so eventually they MUST invent their way around it to maintain or grow fish prdoduction). In order to cheapen out the food they mix it with fat and protein from soy,various slaughterhouse 'byproducts'(the kind of stuff you'd normally find in dog food), rapeseed oil and various other stuff. If they had cheap access to high-quality fats and protein from algae it's a no-brainer, you no longer need bulk amounts of fish-meal at all(you still might want to feed salmon some shrimp or at least the nasty bits of shrimp that humans don't want to eat; this is where salmon gets its pretty pink colour and some of it's flavour).

Algae cheap enough for fuel production might also be able to replace a large fraction of the grains and soy used in feeds for land-bound mammals. Obviously you'd have to do various trials and such to convince farmers that it's not too unhealthy for the animals, doesn't make the meat taste too unsual or anything like that. The fat composition should partly carry through to the finished product(meat, milk, eggs, whatever), just like grassfed beef has a higher quality fat composition(less omega-6 fatty acids and more omega-3 fatty acids than grain fed beef).

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

KitemanSA wrote:
vankirkc wrote:The fly in the algae-for-biofuel ointment is nitrogen.
Actually, the fly in the ointment may be IRON. There are vast stretches of the oceans that have LOTS of nutrients but not much algea because of a lack of the micro-nutrient "iron". Spray a bit of iron, come back a week or two later and scoop up the algae bloom. Thousands, even millions of acres with practically free prodiuction cost.

Use automated skimming ships (sail?) to scoop it up and the price may become negligable.

There is enough of the Pacific in the HNLC (high nutrient, low chlorophyll) regions to provide several hundred percent of the TOTAL energy use by man on Earth. I've done the numbers. I used published numbers for production rates, etc., so all my numbers are dependant on theirs! :wink:
This was tried. It didn't work as expected.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

MSimon wrote:
This was tried. It didn't work as expected.
Source? Other than a number of studies that were experiments and thus of mixed "success", the only effort I know about was for carbon sequestration, NOT for harvesting. Please provide, or direct me, to information you know of regarding harvesting of induced blooms for ANY purpose.

Thanks!

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

OK. It worked. Not well enough.
Some of the findings from the study suggest that, when extrapolated over large regions, iron fertilization could cause billions of tons of carbon to be removed from the atmosphere each year. Removal of this much atmospheric carbon dioxide could have helped cool the Earth during ice ages.

Similarly, some have proposed that a massive iron fertilization program could help mitigate the current trend toward global warming. Brzezinski, however, is not optimistic about preventing global warming through fertilization of the ocean.

He said that his measurements did not show a strong enough result to expect that fertilization could reverse global warming. "It's still an open question as to whether or not this is a viable way to export carbon to the deep sea," he said.

http://www.instadv.ucsb.edu/93106/2004/ ... eding.html
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

pfrit
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Post by pfrit »

MSimon wrote:OK. It worked. Not well enough.
Some of the findings from the study suggest that, when extrapolated over large regions, iron fertilization could cause billions of tons of carbon to be removed from the atmosphere each year. Removal of this much atmospheric carbon dioxide could have helped cool the Earth during ice ages.

Similarly, some have proposed that a massive iron fertilization program could help mitigate the current trend toward global warming. Brzezinski, however, is not optimistic about preventing global warming through fertilization of the ocean.

He said that his measurements did not show a strong enough result to expect that fertilization could reverse global warming. "It's still an open question as to whether or not this is a viable way to export carbon to the deep sea," he said.

http://www.instadv.ucsb.edu/93106/2004/ ... eding.html
As I recall, the issue was not whether it would make massive algal blooms (It did) but whether the biomass would sink (they were not sure). Certainly there was a massive increase of biomass at the surface. For harvesting algae or fish (oceanic biomass) for eating it was a complete success.
What is the difference between ignorance and apathy? I don't know and I don't care.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

Yeah! What he said! 8)

Roger
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Post by Roger »

Let me know when there is a functioning plant that produces fuel at a cost anywhere near the cost of gas at an Exxon station. I seriously doubt the EROI would as good/poor as Bitumen from tar sands (1 to 1.3). Now if algae oil ends up with an EROI of say... 5 to 1 I'll buy you all a beverage. And dinner.
I like the p-B11 resonance peak at 50 KV acceleration. In2 years we'll know.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

Define the energy balance equation so that I know whether to try to take you up on it. I'd hate to be told "no dinner" because the algea had to take in sunlight which is counted in the gazinta side! :wink:

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Roger wrote:Let me know when there is a functioning plant that produces fuel at a cost anywhere near the cost of gas at an Exxon station. I seriously doubt the EROI would as good/poor as Bitumen from tar sands (1 to 1.3). Now if algae oil ends up with an EROI of say... 5 to 1 I'll buy you all a beverage. And dinner.
The EROI on tar sands makes no difference (within reason) if the energy is produced from the sands.

Example. You have to burn 80% of the extracted energy to get output. That means only 20% of your extractions are net. Nothing wrong with that if the economics work. Look at what the horrible Newcomen engine was able to produce.

Civilization itself is pretty popular despite only converting 5% (I don't know if the number is entirely correct - it is the right order of magnitude - i.e. between 1% and 15%) of extracted energy to useful work.

The only question now is: do we have enough energy in the starter battery (or compressed air in the starter flask for you big diesel fans) to crank over the main engines and get them started?

I'm pretty sure the answer is yes. If we don't do something stupid like taking a hammer to the battery because it is full of lead and sulphuric acid.

A civilization with no energy is not a civilization. It is a reversion to brutality and hard labor. I'm getting too old for that sort of thing.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

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