In the beginning...reverse evolution.

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chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

Skipjack wrote:Yes, evolve. You say it. Not degenerate. You say it right there.
Degeneration only causes defects, not abilities. So again, Chris can not be right.
Anyway, we can of course play this game for ever.
So I will say this. e.g.:
The fossile evidence provides us with a timeline of how the evolution happened. There is no fossile evidence of the degeneration that Chris is proposing.
I know that you will bring some argumentation to explain that of course.
'Fraid not. You're arguing something different. You're talking about 'degeneration' whereas I'm talking about evolution but towards strength rather than intellect.

I'm arguing that high functional intellect and sentience may be less of an advantage than outright robustness and survivability iin some circumstances (such as, if you were to be forced to settle on a hostile planet). Drop a zoo chimp and a city-human into a jungle on the other side of the world and see who survives the longest.

The argument that 'humans are the top of the evolution' is some odd human-superiority complex. 'Evolution' doesn't mean the cleverest and most intellectual, it is about physical strength and survivability. In the case that some extraterrestrial species dropped here to earth and realised they weren't strong and fit enough to survive without all the paraphernalia they had access to back on their home planet, then if they had good genetic engineering skills then maybe they'd re-engineer their kids, even if it involved dumming them down a bit.

Why would they get dummed down? Easy - you would most likely need to upgrade their senses - bigger eyes, bigger olfactory organs, bigger hearing, all this means less space for the brain. What's more important on arriving at a far-off destination - being able to philosophise and contemplate the nature of the universe, or being able to detect predators, fight, defend, and kill prey?

kcdodd
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Post by kcdodd »

And yet its equally likely that an alien simply came by on a trip 2B years ago and crapped on a rock. And in there were several microbes which evolved into all life on earth. How does that tickle your fancy? Believe what you want.
Carter

MirariNefas
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Post by MirariNefas »

chrismb wrote: I'm arguing that high functional intellect and sentience may be less of an advantage than outright robustness and survivability iin some circumstances (such as, if you were to be forced to settle on a hostile planet). Drop a zoo chimp and a city-human into a jungle on the other side of the world and see who survives the longest.
Then drop a chimp and a human in the desert. Then try some taiga. Then some temperate forest. Actually, drop a group of chimps in each location, and come back in a hundred years to see if there's a chimp colony. Try it with humans.

The chimps will only propogate in conditions close to their original habitat. The humans will spread everywhere.
chrismb wrote: The argument that 'humans are the top of the evolution' is some odd human-superiority complex.
Well, the whole 6.5 billion of us spread across different evironments thing is a pretty good argument. It doesn't take a complex to draw some conclusions off that. But you're correct that there is no top of evolution.
chrismb wrote: 'Evolution' doesn't mean the cleverest and most intellectual, ...
Yep.
chrismb wrote: ...it is about physical strength...
No!
chrismb wrote:...and survivability.
Yes! Or more like, fecundity and survivability together.
chrismb wrote: In the case that some extraterrestrial species dropped here to earth and realised they weren't strong and fit enough to survive without all the paraphernalia they had access to back on their home planet, then if they had good genetic engineering skills then maybe they'd re-engineer their kids, even if it involved dumming them down a bit.
They're stuck here without the technology they'd use to really get the most out of their intellect, but they somehow still have the technology for advanced genetic engineering? I don't follow.

Even if that could somehow happen, it seems like they'd engineer up some guard dogs and food animals, and engineer up some convenient crops. And you know, if they can manage complex genetic engineering, this means at the very least they'd have their databases intact. So they'd have access to the knowledge they'd need for crafting, building basic windmills and waterwheels and mines. They'd do fine without any drastic dumming down.
chrismb wrote: Why would they get dummed down? Easy - you would most likely need to upgrade their senses - bigger eyes, bigger olfactory organs, bigger hearing, all this means less space for the brain.
Nope, that doesn't make sense.
chrismb wrote: What's more important on arriving at a far-off destination - being able to philosophise and contemplate the nature of the universe, or being able to detect predators, fight, defend, and kill prey?
You're talking about a trait which got this race to travel between stars. Clearly this trait accomplishes more than philosophy and contemplation.

chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

MirariNefas wrote:
They're stuck here without the technology they'd use to really get the most out of their intellect, but they somehow still have the technology for advanced genetic engineering? I don't follow.
You're not really putting yourself in their position. They would arrive with a finite amount of resources to set up a colony, maybe enough carried infrastructure for a generation or two. They'd have to do something quick to survive several generations without infrastructure.

Drop a chimp and human in a desert and they'd both die. That's why no-one lives there and is called a 'desert' because everyone has!

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

How does that work? A related example.
There is no evidence that UFO's do not exist and lots of eye witnesses reporting their existence.
So do UFO's exist or not? By the quoted criteria above, it seems that they do.
(Define UFO as: Appearance of an Object flying, appearing to violate the observer's expected laws of physics, and appearing to the observer to be under intelligent control. Oh yea, and also unknown to the observer! (Unidentified in even the most general category.))
This is very funny, because the dragon analogy, that I brought was used by Carl Sagan to demonstrate that the UFO- myths are impossible to disprove for the same reason (I am not 100% sure anymore, but I think he used it for that). The UFOs are the dragon. Again people are claiming things for whatever reason and it is a chore to disprove. But again there is lots of evidence that there are simpler explanations for each phenomenon described. In the UFO- cause you have to focus on each sighting individually also. You can not take all "sightings" as evidence for "the existance of UFOs" in general. If you go and look at each eye witness report individually and each piece of "evidence" provided by the UFO- believers individually, then you get a very different picture.
Most of these can be easily explained with much simpler, rational explanations.
The problem is again that unless you have another eye witness report that contradicts the first, it is very hard to disprove an eye witness report.
If that person is clever and tries to cover their tracks, it gets even harder.

A: I have aliens landing in my backyard every night.
B: Can I come and see them too then?
A: They only come for me. If someone else is there, they wont come.
B: Can we record them on video then?
A: You cant record them on video, they are jamming all electronics in the area.
B: How about a film camera then?
A: They have means to sense the presence of such a device and they will destroy it.

And so on and so on...

In the end it is possible that there are such aliens in his backyard, but given the evidence and the fact that there is a much simpler explanation (that dude simply talks bogus), it does seem rather unlikely, right?

I'm arguing that high functional intellect and sentience may be less of an advantage than outright robustness and survivability iin some circumstances (such as, if you were to be forced to settle on a hostile planet). Drop a zoo chimp and a city-human into a jungle on the other side of the world and see who survives the longest.
This might be true depending on the environment and the starting situation. However I can think of very few situations where intellect is a disadvantage, especially if paired with sufficient muscles. If I was those aliens, I would give my offspring both, superior intellect and a good amount of muscle to come by. There are even situation where a large amount of muscle can be a disadvantage. Lots of muscles mean a high basic energy consumption, that you can not go below, even when resting (your muscles just constantly burn energy, more muscle also require a bigger heart, etc...).
Why would they get dummed down? Easy - you would most likely need to upgrade their senses - bigger eyes, bigger olfactory organs, bigger hearing, all this means less space for the brain.
I am not to sure about these being exclusive to each other.
'Evolution' doesn't mean the cleverest and most intellectual, it is about physical strength and survivability.
Clearly not. Humans are among the weaker animals per KG of bodymass.
Also, evolution does not work that way. Evolution works with pressure. You have a certain trait that is favorable for survivability for a certain environmental condition and the individuals with such trait will most likely survive longer and therefore have more offspring.
being able to philosophise and contemplate the nature of the universe, or being able to detect predators, fight, defend, and kill prey?
Who says that a higher intelligence is not more favorable for survivability?
It depends on the circumstances.
The problem is also that over the millenia conditions change. Evolution favors those that can survive changing conditions best.

Humans have managed to conquer the most inhabitable spots on earth.
MirariNefas got that right. We humans are the evidence that a higher intellect does help a lot. It is possible though that through certain environmental changes, smarter creatures do die out.
However, in case of us humans there is no evidence to support the theory that we are descendents of a much smarter ancestor, who died out.
In contrary, there is lots of evidence that our ancestors were less intelligent.

I also want to throw in that we do have a very good mix of other traits that did help us to become more intelligent. Stereoscopic vision, for example. This is very important for understanding of dimensions and distances. This in turn is important for math and math means logic. Our hands are able to hold and craft items. Though the question here is, what came first. The neanderthal men had an anatomic difference to the homo sapiens that made them unable to throw spears. Whether this really made a difference, or whether it was something else that meant their demise, we dont know, but it did make a difference. They were about as smart as we were, btw. Anyway being able to handle items of course gives those with the mental skills to develop new, better items a survival advantage.

Speech is another such thing. The homo erectus did have only very limited speech capabilities (if I remember correctly). This was an anatomic problem, more than a mental one. He was not that dumb, but he could not comunicate much of his thoughts with his friends. I do think that comunication is very important however. You need to be able to tell your thoughts to the others in order to make the entire population "smarter" (in terms of knowledge, not intelligence).
IMHO this ability to comunicate new ideas also gives those with a better memory and advantage, because they will be able to gather more knowledge.

I might also throw into the mix the fact that purely by numbers, we are far outnumbered by insects and rats. If you simply go by numbers, they were much more successful than we were.
If we humans ever die out, rats are among the most likely to take over the world. They have been responding very well to changing environmental conditions and the extreme pressure put on them by human "verminators".
They are smart and they have a lot of offspring. A very potent combination. They are not tall and they do not have that huge muscles (though sufficient muscle for what they need).
Cockroaches and other insects are also very successful. Roaches mostly for their insane number of offspring, each with enough mutations to- simply by chance- have something useful for survivability (many more will die though due to unfavorable mutations).
So maybe those aliens were the predecessors of cockroaches, or rats?

In any case, rats show very well how evolution works. They have become resistant to most poisons e.g. and their smarts allow them to outsmart many of the others, or traps, etc.

Professor Science
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Post by Professor Science »

You should read Larry Niven's Protector series. It postulates that the human race is still descended from homo habalis, but homo habalis is actually an alien species from near the center of the galaxy. They have a more involved life cycle than we do, starting with grub babies much like our own, and growing into the breeder stage, barely of tool maker intelligence. Finally, at old age, say, 40, they are infected with a virus that transforms them signifcantly into a super intelligent over protective grand parent of sorts. this is the protector stage.

Protectors are always at war, so their planet is kind of a pit. A decent sized group decided to be done with the whole thing so they made a big ol' space craft and a honking big ion engine and set off for galactic rims (where they found earth). They touched down on earth and got everything set up and the... disaster! the virus they need to turn into protectors isn't growing! they needed more thalium in the soil. So as they died off homo habalis progressed, later on, in like, 22~~ humanity has to deal with pak protectors and they make out ok because they can cooperate together for more than 30 seconds. All in all it's a very enjoyable short novel, if i had a link i'd offer it up.
The pursuit of knowledge is in the best of interest of all mankind.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

MirariNefas wrote:
chrismb wrote:...and survivability.
Yes! Or more like, fecundity and survivability together.
chrismb wrote: In the case that some extraterrestrial species dropped here to earth and realised they weren't strong and fit enough to survive without all the paraphernalia they had access to back on their home planet, then if they had good genetic engineering skills then maybe they'd re-engineer their kids, even if it involved dumming them down a bit.
They're stuck here without the technology they'd use to really get the most out of their intellect, .......
Folks, technology doesn't help evolve us toward intellect. Indeed, it seems to do the opposite. There are all sorts of indicators that our ancestors were, on average, smarter than us. It is the technology that has made the living so easy that the stupid can survive too.

Betruger
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Post by Betruger »

Technology isn't an inhibitor. Lack of adversity is. People are too easily complacent in comfort.

seedload
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Post by seedload »

chrismb wrote: You're not really putting yourself in their position. They would arrive with a finite amount of resources to set up a colony, maybe enough carried infrastructure for a generation or two. They'd have to do something quick to survive several generations without infrastructure.

Drop a chimp and human in a desert and they'd both die. That's why no-one lives there and is called a 'desert' because everyone has!

Your entire premise is based upon the notion that an intelligent race needs advanced technology to survive. Without technology, they would need to muscle up and thus "degenerate". So silly.

An intelligent race stranded without their technology would do something crazy like build a hut, rub some sticks together, craft a bow and arrow or two, maybe smelt some iron, you know - get on with life. Where you come up with the notion that smart people who get their iphones taken away from them can't survive, I will never understand.

Drop a human in the desert and he goes and finds water. You are selling humans VERY short. You are selling a race smart enough to travel the heavens even shorter.

If you want to go the smart-alien-race-intentionally-seeds-intelligent-life route, then you have a better case. Maybe they intentionally raised a bunch of their own offspring without ANY passed down knowledge and dropped them off here to see what would happen.

But the idea that an intelligent species would come here and then have to devlolve to make it is without logic.

BTW, evolution doesn't work like that. There needs to be a certain amount of viability to the original species or it won't survive long enough to evolve into anything else. Your premise is that the alien life is not viable and therefore needs to evolve to get stronger and see farther. Well, evolution takes a while, so the basic lack of viability means that they don't get there.

So, your argument breaks on two counts. First, the lack of viability of the original species is a bad premise. Second, if we can get past that, then the lack of viability kills em off before they even get a chance to evolve into something stronger and dumber.

Regards

Professor Science
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Post by Professor Science »

There's also the similarity humans have with everything on the planet, i mean, we have a very non-zero % genetic overlap with everything that has a vertebrae on the planet. Let alone mammals.
The pursuit of knowledge is in the best of interest of all mankind.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

I agree with you seedload, but want to add, that in a scenario as was proposed by the last episode of battlestar galactica (give up all technology), you would probably see a 50% mortality rate over the first year and a 80% over 4 years.
I think I would have rather tried my luck with the cylons ;)

chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

seedload wrote: Your entire premise is based upon the notion that an intelligent race needs advanced technology to survive. Without technology, they would need to muscle up and thus "degenerate". So silly.
Nope. Not my premise at all. Now you're questioning the theory of evolution (without seemingly realising it).

What I am saying is that if a species that has evolved with its technology and has become dependent on it, and that species is dropped into an environment without it, then those attributes of the species that lends itself to greater survivial with their infrastructure may become a relative detriment to more 'robust' species, particularly in an environment where advanced intellect presents no advantage.

I guess the silliness in the inverse argument you're presenting is that there is no limit to intellect that is 'not-useful'.

Clearly, massive brain function is an energy consuming feature that may not represent good 'value-for-energy' in the survivability stakes. I've not at all said that intellectual et's will drop dead at the sight of the jungle, what I've said is that it may be the case that for certain environments, high functional intellect may be a secondary matter to physical attributes when it comes to what is important to survive. I hardly think that this is very controversial!

The reason you're arguing against evolution if you think otherwise is that the differeces in capacity to survive may only need to be slight, but evolution says whosoever has that slight advantage will be able to control the resources over its competition. let's face it, if there was a total breakdown of civil order tomorrow (remeber, we're all a missing meal or two away from total civil disorder) then it ain't the PhD's and university professors who are going to be the better looters for food and water, it's gonna be the 6'6" thugs with 'love' and 'hate' tatooed on their foreheads!

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Clearly, massive brain function is an energy consuming feature that may not represent good 'value-for-energy' in the survivability stakes.
So does is pure muscle mass.
then it ain't the PhD's and university professors who are going to be the better looters for food and water, it's gonna be the 6'6" thugs with 'love' and 'hate' tatooed on their foreheads!
Not necessarily.
You seem to think of intelligence as in math and language skills and nothing else. Intelligence can also help you assess your threads, build primitive water purifiers (while the idiots will die of cholera, etc) and to determine directions, etc. The strong and ruthless idiot might have an advantage in the beginning and in a direct (fist-) fight, but there are many situations where brute force allone wont win you a meal. He will soon get lost, waste his resources on dumb things, etc.
Mankind made the biggest progress when they learned to cultivate wild animals and raise them for food and fur.
That takes intelligence and not brute force.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Now you're questioning the theory of evolution (without seemingly realising it).
I did not see him doing that. Explain please.

seedload
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Post by seedload »

chrismb wrote:Nope. Not my premise at all. Now you're questioning the theory of evolution (without seemingly realising it).

What I am saying is that if a species that has evolved with its technology and has become dependent on it, and that species is dropped into an environment without it, then those attributes of the species that lends itself to greater survivial with their infrastructure may become a relative detriment to more 'robust' species, particularly in an environment where advanced intellect presents no advantage.

I guess the silliness in the inverse argument you're presenting is that there is no limit to intellect that is 'not-useful'.

Clearly, massive brain function is an energy consuming feature that may not represent good 'value-for-energy' in the survivability stakes. I've not at all said that intellectual et's will drop dead at the sight of the jungle, what I've said is that it may be the case that for certain environments, high functional intellect may be a secondary matter to physical attributes when it comes to what is important to survive. I hardly think that this is very controversial!

The reason you're arguing against evolution if you think otherwise is that the differeces in capacity to survive may only need to be slight, but evolution says whosoever has that slight advantage will be able to control the resources over its competition. let's face it, if there was a total breakdown of civil order tomorrow (remeber, we're all a missing meal or two away from total civil disorder) then it ain't the PhD's and university professors who are going to be the better looters for food and water, it's gonna be the 6'6" thugs with 'love' and 'hate' tatooed on their foreheads!
You ignor my comments on viability and don't seem to grasp scale.

About viability, if their technology is stripped and they are no longer viable, then they die - they don't evolve. There is no time to evolve. For reference, you and I are SEVERAL HUNDRED THOUSHAND GENERATIONS removed from lucy and her brothers and sisters. That is an evolutionary time scale. Extinction time scales are generally much much shorter. If you are going extinct, don't bet on evolution to save you.

If their technology is stripped and they ARE viable, then their intelligence becomes the overriding factor. They quickly rebuild a society (relative to evolutionary time scales at least) and get on with things.

As to your comments about 6'6" thugs. Those thugs are perfectly capable of having smart children. Recessive traits are hard to get rid of. It takes a long time. Again, it is a matter of scale. My thug buddies and I kick a lot of ass on Carl Sagan and his buddies. My thug buddies and I land ourselves some hunnies, get to preproducing, and, because we are human, we restart a society. Some of our kids are stupid, like us, and some are smart, like you, and, amazingly, humanity is pretty much the same as it was - evolutionarily speaking. Of course we are all a lot better looking.

Regards

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